Negotiation must never be over

Animal rights activists turned to social media and the internet to decry the “intimidation” and “harassment” of Camille Marino, founder of Negotiation is Over, by law enforcement officers in Florida. Early Tuesday morning, police arrived at her home in central Florida, executing a search warrant that apparently led to the seizure of items from her home (presumably computers, phones and other media that demonstrate her communications with other members of the animal rights extremist movement). This action stems from her willful violation of civil restraining orders that prohibit harassment of scientists (in Michigan and California) and her attempts to trespass on University of Florida property and to intimidate its research faculty and students.

For some time, Ms. Marino has been engaged in an effort to intimidate, harass and repress biomedical researchers across the country. Threats of dismemberment, gleeful descriptions of murder and pictures of researchers home, alongside names of family members and home addresses, have been published on her website. Outside a court in Michigan, she claims that her actions and blogging are “Constitutionally-protected speech”. What she fails to mention is that her own speech is all that matters to her. The voices of scientists who advocate on behalf of the humane and respectful nature of research are met with her threats. The opinions of those within her own group that speak out against her rabid speech, which sometimes encourages the targeting of young children of researchers, are met with condemnation and harassment. Apparently, she believes that the architects of the Constitution set out to protect her speech above all others. She is wrong, and the law enforcement actions being undertaken against her are the logical result of her virulent and criminal activities.

A demonstrator at the 2009 Pro-Test for Science demonstration at UCLA calls for the arrest of animal rights extremists who perpetrate criminal acts

Freedom to speak is a fundamental right in our society; yet it comes with responsibility. That responsibility demands that the speaker not use his or her own words to incite others to violence or to mercilessly intimidate another. That responsibility requires that the speaker own up to the consequences of his or her speech when it crosses the line.

That is what is happening today in Florida. Ms. Marino has decided that social and legal standards for decent behavior don’t apply to her, and she is facing the consequences for that. None of us should have any pity for someone that hides behind the Constitution when intimidating others. When she says that Negotiation is Over, what she means is that all voices other than hers must be silenced. Negotiation must never be over. It can only be over when one individual, through feelings of zealotry and superiority, decides that their pure vision is more meaningful than that of all others and that they are right to punish those that disagree.

In this situation, Ms. Marino is not very different than the Reverend Fred Phelps who screamed “God hates fags” outside of Matthew Shepard’s funeral or Operation Rescue that seeks to squelch women’s right to choose. Ms. Marino and her followers are in good company with both. No doubt, we will hear very similar “1st amendment” defenses from all these extremist groups. In the end, let all us decent folk hope that the law ultimately repudiates the hateful, condemnable speech coming from the groups similarly.

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325 comments

  1. It was great to learn that the FBI have finally taken action against Marino…what took them so long.

    The way that Marino and her fans attacked Gary Francione back in 2009 made it clear that they had no interest in anybody’s freedom of speech apart from their own, no wonder that the Southern Poverty Law Center have recently taken an interest in her and her circle of extremists http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/negotiation-is-over

  2. So I guess it must be okay to take a dog from a shelter, cut it open without anesthetic, stick tubes inside its body and make it run on a treadmill while pus and blood ooze out of its tubes until the dog dies. Is is actions such as this that vivisectors demand the right to defend? Vivisectionists should have nowhere to hide. Go Marino!

    1. No. These are not actions we seek to defend, nor do they describe the reality at all.

      Let me rephrase your question is an accurate manner:

      “So I guess it must be okay to purchase a dog from a specialty breeder, deeply anesthetize it with the same medications used in hospitals and veterinary clinics, place surgical grade catheters using sterile operating room techniques supervised by a veterinary medical doctor, provide it with the same pain killers humans receive during its recovery and then later measure its physiology while it engages in voluntary exercise (I hate to tell you this Venus, but you don’t have to force a dog to run; it will do it by choice because it loves to do it. My own dogs force ME to run to keep up with them). All the while, it is monitored by veterinary staff and technicians, played with and cared for day in and day out.

      Is it actions such as this that biomedical researchers demand the right to defend?”

      In a word: YES. In order to stop disease, these are defensible actions. It’s no wonder you have to lie about the conduct of research because, when presented with the truth – that it’s no different than a trip to the vet clinic – people in the broader public will see that it is humane, responsible and right.

      1. I want to first admit that I am proud to be an extremist. I am as against animal exploitation as I am abortion. I believe in right and wrong. Humans were given the capacity by God to know the difference and then behave accordingly. For most of history we have not done so.

        If you truly believe that what you are doing is good and righteous (and I disagree), and your work is paid for by public funds, why do you feel entitled to more privacy protections than everybody else? Camille Marino posted publicly available information. I did the same on my occasional blog. I did so because of the public record and free speech issues involved.

        That being said, I will be totally honest. I would love nothing more than to punch an animal abuser/exploiter in the face. However, God expects me to love and pray for my enemies and I work extremely hard at doing so. I pray that God will touch your hearts so that you will rethink what you are doing. I pray that you will find comfort in His mercy.

        I stand by what I know to be true. I do not try to hide. My address is 811 Aumond Place East, Augusta, Georgia. 30909. My phone number is 706-533-6522.

      2. I feel no more entitled to any protection than any other common citizen of this country, and the judge who heard my petition for a restraining order felt the same. When I went into court, he asked me a lot of hard questions, as he was determined not to infringe upon the Constitutional free speech of others. We had a back and forth that lasted almost an hour (by the way, CM was invited weeks in advance and chose not to show up or defend herself, so she has no one to blame but herself).

        When the judge left the courtroom, he was headed for his chambers in order to review the content on the NIO website. He came back 5 min later and signed the order because the NIO website convinced him that the content easily constituted contemptuous and illegal speech.

        I also am thankful that I was able to advise Dr. O’Leary to go to court, that he did and that, today, there is serious risk that NIO leadership will spend time in jail for their hateful threats. Here’s hoping that justice will soon prevail.

      3. So how do you justify scenes of punching animals in the face, breaking their tails by jamming cage doors shut, leaving them to languish in pain with open wounds and insertions of foreign objects???? One undercover investigation showed a lab worker/vivisector? beating a dog repeatedly over the head, until it collapsed. Then dragged away limp. Another investigation showed a vivisector punching a dog in the face while calling it a “stupid bitch” simply because the dog writhed in avoidance and fear of its handlers: you say staff members play with dogs????? How can a dog that is subjected to monstrous experiments and repeated daily abuse. get up and “play” with the people who are responsible for that abuse? My….don’t you paint a rosey picture of the goings on inside a vivisection lab. Can we come spend a few months with you at work and observe the dogs playing on a daily basis? I’m betting you wouldn’t welcome that intrusion, Would you say that people in the broader public would see punching a dog in the face or beating it over the head repeatedly until it collapses, as humane, responsible and right? Because I see the look of horror on the faces of people that I speak to about vivisection practices and they are appalled at the images made available on the internet: images that cannot ALL be fraudulent or misleading. Punching an animal’s lights out is not humane or right, under ANY circumstances, any more than it is right to punch out yours. Come at me 1/.208 Gardeners Road, Kingsford NSW 2032 Sydney Australia +61 2 9663 5887.

      1. Marino threatened to torture and murder children. Then she encouraged others to do so. That is the basis for the charges against her in Michigan.

  3. So killing innocent animals in the name of science isn’t extreme??? Keeping animals in pain, maiming, torturing, probing, poking, and then killing isn’t extreme??? This woman has passion and thank God she does ot these monsters, oh I mean “Doctors”, would be able to do their dark deeds in their dark rooms with no consequences. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps animals killers get into this profession, much like pedophiles become priest and teachers? The person holding the sign to arrest animal “extremist” (btw, I love how that work is thrown around now) should take a tour of one of their labs, would she be able to look at the bunny whose head is half removed, or the cat whose head is in a vice grip… go take a look at what they are doing and then decide who the extremist is!!!

    1. Amen! Well said, although again I don’t agree with or condone making threats on and doing violence on the torturers in the ways that have been described above in the article; there are much better, more peaceful ways of getting your voice heard than making a bad name for yourself, which really ultimately just hurts the animals even more.

      1. What most folks don’t realize is that if you take away someone’s ability to vent, even if you think what they say is ugly….well then, the anger and outrage is just going to boil out in action.

  4. She attacked Gary F? What for–he’s a GREAT advocate for animals and veganism!
    On the other hand, people who are paid to torture and kill innocent animals in labs, which has NOTHING to do with helping humanity or with science, are NOT scientists–they are animal torturers and killers! So let’s call them just what they ARE, and although I don’t agree with threats and violence on these people, I DO strongly believe that vivisection and animal testing/research, in all it’s outdated, ridiculous claims that it somehow benefits people when it does not, definitely needs to be outlawed everywhere!

  5. In your article you state that negotiation should never be over. “It can only be over when one individual, through feelings of zealotry and superiority decides that their pure vision is more meaningful than that of others….” This is exactly the mindset of vivisectors who believe they have dominion over all else and whose sole purpose is not to find cures, but to gain multi million dollar grants to continue with their fraudulent scientific ‘research’, thus enabling their lavish lifestyles at the American tax payer’s expense. It is because of this that Negotiation Is Over.

    1. Lauren – let’s talk about the involvement of the American taxpayer in this, since you raised it.

      Ms. Marino and other animal rights groups (notably, PCRM) made charges against Donal O’Leary with the USDA. The USDA subsequently conducted a systematic and deep investigation of Dr. O’Leary, the considerable expense of which was footed by the American taxpayer.

      What did they find after spending countless hours pouring over his books and looking around his lab? Nothing supporting the charges. In fact, they found that he was acting appropriately, in complete accord with animal welfare regulations. All the while, they were drawn away from their other duties.

      Money well spent thanks to NIO? I think most people would see your actions as frivolous and wasteful, while the money spent in labs to cure disease is money well spent.

      1. Of course, you do. You should express your opposition each and every time you vote and by communicating your opposition to the NIH who funds the work. No scientist has any problem with that (we intend to do the same to support animal research). That is not what is being discussed here… What we are discussing here is the intention of many to stop our work no matter the opinions of others. What we are discussing here is the all to evident undercurrent of “any means necessary”.

        I must remain clear about one thing, however. NIO can threaten, harass and intimidate others. NIO can continue acting like a bunch of childish bullies. NIO will not win. All the hatred, violence and insanity spewed at me has not stopped me because the work is the RIGHT THING TO DO.

      2. I notice you didn’t want to talk about allowing people into your labs to film/document your ‘work’ at all – why is this exactly ? Why don’t you all film the experiments that you perform on animals and allow the public to see where their taxes are going ?

        Something to be ashamed of perchance ?

      3. @Dave: I believe it’s because UCLA doesn’t want to open up their vivisectors to that kind of publicity. To them, anything that goes on there could be made to look worse than it is. David Jentsch has openly said that he wouldn’t mind showing people his lab and how animals are “cared” for, but the school won’t allow it because they fear that it will put the vivisectors at risk regardless of how cruel or uncruel the animals are treated. Of course, this still leads one to wonder… if the school really has nothing to hide, why not allow us in?

        According to this article: http://www.bri.ucla.edu/bri_weekly/news_20110222.asp 52% of the public support vivisection. I believe that this is because at least 52% of the population hasn’t looked any further than being comforted by the false belief that it is ‘for the greater good’, or are just taking vivisector’s word for it simply because it’s easier than actually having to do research and reassessing whether your actions reflect your morals. I believe many haven’t seen what actually goes on in labs and so they are not able to make an educated decision. How can someone conclude that the end justifies the means when they haven’t even seen what the means looks like?

      4. Actually, it’s because UCLA doesn’t want people like you setting fires to labs, risking animal and human lives in the process. So, they are forced to keep their locations and security measures a secret.

      5. Since when did you start caring about animal lives? In any case, UCLA wouldn’t have to give away specific locations, just show the experiments that are going on. After all, if the public is generally (as you say) supportive of vivisection, why are there so many measures taken to make sure that what goes on stays under wraps?

    2. I strongly agree with you Lauren,, those with small minds will never accomplish anything good for anybody. They will always remain a legend in their own minds. John Paul Mitchell,, there was a MAN. World renown hair stylist. The Godfather of cruelty free products, he stood by his beliefs back when it was not popular. He and his products became a force to be reckoned with. John Paul Mitchell changed the way hair products are made today because of his insight,, his compassion. These other guys will never amount to a hill of beans and will NEVER do anything but defraud the tax payers out of trillions of dollars.

  6. Critics of Camille Marino, NIO and those seeking to bring transparency to the horrors of the vivisection industry and the massive fraud and criminal actions emanating thus, display a lack of empathy and intelligence – displaying instead apathy and stupidity!

    ‘Torture is useless because it makes people confess to crimes they never committed. Vivisection is equally useless because animals have nothing to confess. However, it does serve to confess human stupidity.’ — Pietro Croce, leading Italian pathologist

    ‘I abhor vivisection. It should at least be curbed. Better it should be abolished. I know of no achievement through vivisection, no scientific discovery that could not have been obtained without barbarism and cruelty. The whole thing is evil.’ — Charles Mayo, founder of the Mayo Clinic

    btw – Gary Francione is a welfarist, not an abolitionist – therefore in my book he merits little, if any applause. He lines his pockets very nicely by balancing quite ‘comfortably’ – sitting on the fence!

    1. “The AVMA recognizes that animals play a central and essential role in research, testing, and education for continued improvement in the health and welfare of human beings and animals.
      -American Medical Veterinary Association

      “Whereas the American Association for the Advancement of Science has long acknowledged the importance and endorsed the use of animal experimentation in promoting human and animal welfare and in advancing scientific knowledge;

      Be it resolved that the American Association for the Advancement of Science continues to support the use of animals in scientific research”
      -American Association for the Advancement of Science

      “There is not a person alive today who has not benefited from humane medical research involving animals. Were it not for this type of research, both the length and the quality of human life would be greatly reduced.

      The continued use of animals—treating them with the dignity, gentleness, and respect to which they are entitled—is a matter of common sense. The American Academy of Neurology joins other medical groups and concerned citizens in supporting the continued use of animal studies in medical research.”
      -American Academy of Neurology

      We can have a duel with quotations all day long, but the long story short is that physicians, doctors and scientists (from physicists to economists) broadly support the notion that animal research is crucial to human health and is consequently responsible.

      1. …..and there are also many people dead today because of testing on animals that yielded results that were inapplicable to humans. Happens every day, people dying from “research” (needless torture) based on animal torture. Why don’t we join the more progressive countries and employ the use of Cell, tissue and organ cultures
        epidemiological studies, human volunteer studies clinical research
        and computer and mathematical modeling? The benefits are enormous, the results relate directly to humans, and animals are spared. Thousands of physicians agree. Why doesn’t this country?

      2. DAVID JENTSCH, I AM ONE OF MANY AS YOU SAY “TRYING” TO STOP YOUR WORK, DAMN RIGHT I AM, AND I WONT STOP “TRYING” EITHER, WHAT A CROCK YOU WROTE.. TREATING ANIMALS WITH DIGNITY, GENTLENESS, AND RESPECT..TO WHICH THEY ARE..ENTITLED…TELL THE CAT I SAW HAVING ITS BRAINS SCOOPED OUT WHILE CONCIOUS AND HAVING COTTON WOOL INSERTED INTO ITS EMPTY BRAIN CAVITY, TELL THE MONKEY WHO HAD ACID SPILLED ON IT AND ITS BRAIN CUT OPEN WHILE IT WRITHED IN AGONY BECAUSE IT COULD FEEL IT WHILE SOME MORON STOOD OVER IT EATING A BURGER AND LAUGHING, TELL THAT TO THE MONKEY SO SEVERELY BRAIN DAMAGED SITTING IN A CHAIR WHILE ANOTHER MORON WAVED ITS PAW TO THE CAMERA, TELL IT TO THE BEAGLE BEING PUNCHED IN THE FACE AND STRANGLED AND SCREAMED AT BECAUSE IT WAS TERRIFIED OF SOME SO CALLED RESEARCHER WANTING TO SHOVE A TUBE DOWN ITS THROAT TO PUMP WHATEVER POISONS INTO ITS STOMACHE, DOGS AND CATS DEVOCALISED SO .. THEY… DONT HEAR THEM SCREAMING IN PAIN AND TERROR..WHAT DO THESE SO CALLED SCIENTISTS/RESEARCHERS SAY TO THE ANIMALS AFTER THEY HAVE TORTURED THEM…WE RESPECT YOU….I SUPPORT CAMILLE MARINO 100% AND I SUPPORT NIO THE SAME…YOU DONT RESPECT ANY ANIMAL, YOU CAUSE THEM UNIMAGINAL PAIN AND TORTURE..AND YOU GET AWAY WITH IT BECAUSE..YOU..CALL IT SCIENCE….I CALL IT TORTURE AND MURDER….

      1. You are a liar O’Leary!

        It was noticed also, that you took great pleasure in reading the ‘Freddy and Grimm’ letter in court. Disabuse yourself of the idea that Marino wrote this – she did not!

        Camille Marino may have said that the spawn of sadists and murderers such as yourself ought to be made aware of atrocities, as should playground friends and neighbours. If you are doing something that is not shameful, why would this worry you! After all, you and your family are living very comfortably – a lifestyle built on the anguish and blood of animals you slaughter.

        Certain people have in their possession copy of a letter written by two of your associates at WSU. The allegations in this letter would, if proven, see you locked up and the key thrown away! Your familiy would be tainted by the ignominy of your perversions.

        Until your colleagues are willing to have their names published and substantiate their claims, there is not much we can do – for now! I would ask simply – are you by any chance related to Kimberley Lindsey?!

        As a liberator wrote recently, you have enemies closer to home than you may think. “Et Tu Brute.”

      2. Donal, can you please respond to the description above by Eleish Harvey on the many brutal, inhumane and blatantly cruel experiments conducted on conscious animals. It is very telling, how none of the vivisctionists on this thread have responded to this or any similar posting. Eating a hamburger while an animal writhes in agony? Really???? This is a tragic indictment of a sociopathic monster that displays no empathy towards the animal he has inflicted so much pain on. And you all justify these actions in the name of improving health. Can you please explain to us then, why…when so much “progress” has been made in the human health, is our species suffering ever increasing rates of heart disease, strokes, diabetes, neurological disorders, tumors and mental illness????? And please don’t tell us how far you have come in finding the cure for cancer. That’s an old chestnut……

      3. bailiff failed to eject all of Marino’s supporters to prevent us from observing your performance on the stand, Mr. O’Leary. You seemed to stumble quite a bit trying to explain before the court how Marino’s quote: “I hope your miscreant spawn are ostracized in the playground” amounts to a threat “to torture and murder children.”

        Perhaps you’d rather explain yourself here. Or let’s simply let it stand that your a lying sack of shit who’s only agenda is to “retain your right to torture and murder in peace and anonymity” as Camille continues to maintain.

        It appears that your wholesale disregard for facts, evidence, and drawing any credible or reliable conclusions from such is not limited to your depravity that you would like to continue to promote as “research.”

        Perhaps your alleged “scientific”

  7. I suggest people look at crimes that have ACTUALLY been committted in vivisection laboratories. Rather than focus on WORDS that have been used. Here’s a few more words for you – my own not Camille Marino’s – I hope every last one of these fraudulent, sadistic fuckers is strung up by his heels and left to rot!

    1. Fraud is telling lies about research and researchers.
      Sadism is taking pleasure in imagining or exacting harm on others.

      In your own ironic statements, you prove that both apply to you better than to any researcher or scientist.

      1. Fraud is taking the money of taxpayers who remain unaware of the ignominy and uselessness of your ‘research’! Everything I say is based on fact.

        Sadism, i agree, is taking pleasure in imagining or exacting harm on others – which is precisely what you do Jentsch.

        Insofar as wishing you harm – that would be a reaction to all the pain, misery and slaughter at your filthy blood-begrimed hands. And the perpetuation of these atrocities if you are not stopped!

        Sadistic frauds such as yourself have forfeited all rights! ‘Vivisector’ is a species in and of itself and will be wiped out! Negotiation Is Over.

      2. Movies showing glee at punching lab monkeys in the face, cutting off body parts while they scream in pain, and exacting needless pain is not a lie. How horrendous do we need to be in the name of junk science before we get a grip? I personally do not want a medicine that was tested on a dog any more than I want my dog experimented on. We have cutting edge technologies that eliminate the need for this archaic practice……why is having an open mind so hard for many….especially when it comes to eliminating harm to humans?
        http://altweb.jhsph.edu/

      3. Dont care how much this comment stirs up but I have been reading the comments and getting sick Not at you David or the article but the hate that is spewed here. I agree with one thing not all animal research does cross over SOOOO lets use these people who are so against animal research as “guinea pigs and lab rats” then the research will cross over. I am sick to the core with the ANIMAL RIGHTS activists spouting how much better animals are than humans In some ways they are right animals are basic They want to eat, drink, sleep and reproduce. Only humans could despise others of their own species this much. I am not ashamed of using animals for our needs that is why they are here. But sometimes I would love to do some of the things we are accused of doing to animals to the fools that spout all this hate. I am glad this woman who is suppose to care so much and can want to do such vile things to a human is going to go to jail. Boy SHE will learn what abuse it there!!! She is going to be someones B!+ch REAL quick!!!

  8. Can someone enlighten me – what is an ‘Animal Extremist?’ Surely that sign shoud read ‘Animal Abuse Extremist’ and be painted on the walls and windows of vivisectors everywhere!!!

    1. Funny you should ask. There may well be different definitions of an extremist, but one that is pretty apparent is that an extremist is anyone that declares that “negotiation is over!” Someone unwilling to even allow others with different views to participate in a conversation without hurling threats and harassment. This sounds like NIO to me.

      And, as Paul indicated above, it sounds like NIO to all the major national groups that monitor extremists like neo-nazis, racists, and yes, NIO – the Southern Poverty Law Center.

      1. Other “extremists” throughout history include the likes of Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, Cesar Chavez… heck, even Jesus himself was viewed as an extremist. (I also find it interesting that three of these people happen(ed) to be vegetarian.) All of them spent the majority of their lives working to effect social change by speaking of compassion and treating others with kindness and respect. Is extremism always a bad thing?

        Obviously the attack on your car did nothing but hurt the AR movement, which is precisely why the vast majority of those of us in AR disagree with these violent tactics, despite how much we may dislike you, your actions, and your philosophy.

      2. FUNNY YOU SHOULD SAY, THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT VIEWS HAVE ALMOST PROBABLY NEVER BOTHERED TO WATCH A VIVISECTION/EXPERIMENT/TESTING VIDEO TO SEE WHAT THESE DEFENCELESS ANIMALS GO THROUGH..IM SURE IF THEY WATCHED A FEW THEIR VIEWS WOULD CHANGE.. WOULDENT YOU SAY….MINE CERTAINLY DID….

    2. Annie,

      Francione is an abolitionist and a pacifist. He is attacked by people like Marino and others not because of the former, but the latter.

      Contrary to Marino and others like her, major animal rights philosophers like Gary Francione, Tom Regan and Peter Singer, understand that moral disputes in a democratic society ought to be debated openly and without the threats, intimidation and violence. They have all spoken against the use of violence within the animal rights movement. After all, they suggest the animal rights movement is based on compassion.

      Thus, Marino is a fringe element in the animal protection movement — an extremist that denies the societal contract of debate and speech, deciding violence is justified to impose her views on the rest of society.

      1. what violence are you referring to? words? last i checked, words haven’t killed anyone. neither has anyone within the entire animal rights movement history.

      2. @darioringach: Actually, I happen to know what the definition of the word “bully” is:

        bully (n): 1.A person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker.

        Yeah… that totally doesn’t describe vivisectors in the slightest.

      3. SO IM AN EXTREMIST TOO BECAUSE I SHOW.. COMPASSION… TOWARDS ANIMALS WHO ARE BEING BARBARICALLY TORTURED AND MUTILATED DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY IN LABORITORIES AM I.. ?? I DONT IMPOSE .. MY VIEWS.. ON ANYBODY.. I SHOW THEM VIDEOS AND PICTURES.. OF ANIMALS BEING MUTILATED..BEATEN..LAUGHED AT WHEN THEY ARE BEING HURT…THEY MAKE THEIR OWN MINDS UP TO WHAT STEPS TO TAKE…..IM AN EXTREMIST BECAUSE . I CARE ABOUT ANIMALS..THANKS FOR THE COMPLIMENT…

      4. The word “bully” could be applied to someone who bullies both humans and animals. It is not only to be used specifically in regards to humans alone. How is vivisection not bullying? Vivisectors feel the right to use animals in experiments simply because they cannot speak for themselves or run away.

  9. You can argue all day long about whether or not vivisection produces meaningful results or is scientifically valid. What I have yet to hear is why it is moral or ethical to use another sentient being against its will.

      1. What I should have said is that I haven’t heard one valid reason. I’m sure the animals would agree these arguments are utter nonsense and do not matter to them. What matters to them is their life, free from being used for some human’s purpose. There used to be “arguments” in favor of the slavery of other people too. Turns out they were as wrong as you are
        about vivisection.

      2. You can say that we are wrong all you want. Saying it again and again doesn’t make it right. Scientific progress is right. The moral foundation of animal research is sound. Ignore the arguments and hide behind threats and harassment, if you must, but it doesn’t make your position any more correct.

        If you truly wish to end animal research, use the law and the legislature. Feeble attempts to end it by intimidation will not work.

  10. It’s been said that there are only two types of people who defend vivisection. Those who profit from it, and those who don’t know enough about it. Jentsch is clearly one of the former. A ‘man’ who has made his money from torturing and killing animals. Those who defend animal abuse throw their hands up in despair at ‘animal extremists’. Yet, lawful means of protest are being criminalized at an increasing pace. The so called ‘Ag Gag’ bills being passed which make it a criminal offense to record undercover footage of abuse being a perfect example. If you close down lawful means of protest you inevitably push people to more ‘extreme’ measures. For the past 100 years people have peacefully protested in numbers against the pure evil of animal experimentation. End result? Virtually no change. The time has most certainly arrived for far more direct action to be taken.
    P.S.
    I love how the pro vivisection stooges in the photo up above lack the intelligence to even be capable of fitting words onto a banner. Priceless!

      1. Very touching indeed. But, it doesn’t alter the fact that in every opinion poll ever conducted around the globe a massive majority (usually around 75-80%) always vote in favor of an immediate end to animal experimentation. A total of THREE people like your piece up above. How many dissenting voices are there? Supporters of vivisection like to claim that those who oppose the practice are a vocal minority. But, that is simply not the case. The overwhelming majority recognize that cures for human diseases (leaving aside the fact that the majority of animal experiments are performed for commercial, not medical purposes) are found by studying humans. Not, by torturing animals.

      2. Sorry, Sonny, but you have it wrong. If 75-80% of the world’s population agreed on anything, their opinion would be policy. The fact that animal research plays a partial role in the scientific endeavors of countries around the world proves our point by showing that public sentiment is supportive and understanding of the value of a limited role for animal research in science.

        Less than 5% of the people of the world are ethical vegans. The rest consume animals for food or use them as workers. Compared to those uses, the involvement of animals in research is more vastly more socially responsible and beneficial. As a result, the ethical and moral basis of animal research is strong.

  11. Justify this Jentsch:

    DEATH FOR THE 30-A-DAY DOGS
    Hell of helpless chain-smokers

    INVESTIGATION by MARY BEITH who worked in Britain’s animal labs to get these disturbing facts

    THIS is the price of smoking pleasure,

    Rows of beagle dogs, trussed up and masked, and each compelled to smoke up to 30 cigarettes a day.

    Smoking is not their pleasure. More of a misery.

    But the chain-smoking beagles have to puff away relentlessly. As the stubs burn out, new cigarettes are promptly inserted by lab assistants in the grotesque “smoking masks” attached to these unhappy animals.

    Some of the dogs go on smoking for up to three years. Then they are killed. All, of course, in the name of research. In this case research into the human pastime known as smoking.

    It is part of tests being carried out by Britain’s largest company, Imperial Chemical Industries, on their new “safe” cigarette.

    I observed this incredible scene while taking part with other Sunday People investigators in the first-ever probe into animal research laboratories.

    A sharp increase in experiments has followed the stringent regulation ordered by the Government’s Dunlop Committee on drug safety.

    Ten animals every minute are being used in licensed experiments for research.

    Because Britain’s animal researchers do not welcome public attention much of our startling information was gathered by investigators obtaining jobs as laboratory assistants without disclosing their identities.

    But nothing we saw was more pitiful than the chain-smoking dogs.

    I.C.I. and the massive Imperial Tobacco Company have joined in investing £13 million on a new factory where the cellulose-based “New Smoking Material” – N.S.M. for short – will be used in cigarettes to reduce the health risk in human smokers.

    At I.C.I.’s “Dog Toxicity Unit” at Alderley Park, Cheshire, where I took a job, there are 48 beagles smoking variations of ordinary tobacco and N.S.M.

    One batch of 12, who have been smoking for two years, are expected to smoke 30 a day. Others smoke only 10 a day.

    PART of my job was to get the dogs trussed in fabric slings like strait-jackets.

    Their heads were restrained by locking two boards in place, like medieval stocks.

    The dogs were then lifted on trolleys to the smoking platform, and the masks, valves and tubes were fixed to their faces.

    WE HAD to adjust electronic valves which control the amount of amoke and clear air inhaled by the dogs.

    WE HAD to watch flashing lights on the control box which indicate the dog’s breathing and tolerance of the smoke.

    WE HAD to help re-fit masks where dogs had struggled free. One tried to bite my hand as I put the muzzle on.

    WE HAD to hurry along dogs who got behind with their daily “ration” by adjusting the valves so that the beagles were forced to inhale more smoke to speed up the process.

    I was constantly reminded to carry out this procedure.

    And when they have finished their smoking stint the dogs are killed and sent to pathology laboratories to be cut up and examined for signs of cancer, liver or heart diseases or other possible effects.

      1. And by the way, the majority never control setting policy for anything. That is left to the corporations and the 1%.

      1. Of course we know that smoking is unhealthy! And yet, despite that knowledge, people keep doing it and often find it impossible to quit. The reason for this is that we don’t know WHY smoked tobacco is so addictive. There isn’t a single research project in the world going on solely to show that smoking is addictive and unhealthy. The work is designed to find out WHY it’s addictive and to stop that process so that one of the largest causes of preventable human death on the planet can be wiped out.

        For more information: http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/01/opinion/oe-london1

      2. OR we could save a lot of time, money, and lives and simply NOT SMOKE. I don’t believe that animals should be punished for human’s foolish actions and addictions. If people are addicted to cigarettes it is because they made the choice to start smoking. They need to take responsibility for their actions.

      3. I was an addict at one time in my life. I never blamed anyone but myself. I don’t believe animals should be punished for other people’s addictions.

    1. MAYBE JENTSCH CAN PUT A GREAT BIG WIDE SCREEN TELLY IN THE TOWN WHERE HE LIVES AND SHOW THE SUPPORTERS OF WHAT HE DOES TO THE ANIMALS.. THE SUFFERING PAIN AND TORTURE, THEY WOULDENT BE SO SUPPORTIVE…

      1. David sees his experiments through the lens of ‘the end justifies the means’. Over time this has made him ignore how truly horrifying the ‘means’ really is. This is how he can go home to his two dogs, birds, and hedgehog at night and call himself an “animal lover”.

      2. You have it all wrong, Vegan Rabbit. You don’t understand anything about me – not who I am, what my motivations are or what I do or do not “love”. But there is no point in trying to convince you otherwise, so I am not going to try.

      3. The fact that you can’t understand the motivation to end disease and to create fundamental biological knowledge though science is what is truly baffling. You are closed minded, and it doesn’t bother me in the least that someone like you can’t understand me.

  12. PCRM:

    “The group’s administrative complaint to the USDA contended that dogs used in O’Leary’s experiments show signs of unrelieved pain, and thus are wrongly classified with the USDA. The protocol for O’Leary’s experiments labels them as USDA Category D, which covers “animals used in research, experiments, or tests where appropriate anesthetic, analgesic or tranquilizing agents are required to avoid pain or distress.”

    The animal rights advocates said in the petition for enforcement that the Wayne State experiments should instead fall under USDA Category E, which includes animals used in research where the investigator “is unable or unwilling to administer anesthetic, analgesic or tranquilizing agents.”

    According to the protocol form for research that the university must file with its Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, experiments in USDA Category E must “identify the condition that places the animals in Category E and provide scientific justification for withholding alleviation of pain/distress.”

    “I don’t know how anyone could look at (the daily progress report) and not see that this animal was in pain,” Richardson said.

    He also said that records indicate Queenie was given Rimadyl for pain relief, which Richardson said was once used as an over-the-counter pain medication for humans. “They didn’t want to give her anything that would change her ability to run on the treadmill,” such as a narcotic, he said.

    In his written analysis of the veterinary records, Richardson said, “while the amount of pain control used pre- and post-operatively appears adequate, the use of Rimadyl for the level of pain and trauma Queenie was experiencing is not.”

    Richardson said the chest cavity is a sensitive area, and that the surgeries in O’Leary’s experiments open the chest, in a procedure known as a thoracotomy, to clamp arteries and veins, and tunnel under the skin, leaving “eight to nine tubes hanging out of the dog.”

    O’Leary’s research protocol shows that up to five surgeries might be performed on dogs in the course of an experiment.

    “Chest tubes are very painful,” Richardson said. “To maintain one for that long — I don’t know any other word but cruel.”

    One local doctor who signed the complaint sent to the USDA said she fundamentally opposes animal testing. “I think we’ve reached a point in current Western medicine where the use of animals can’t teach us anymore about human physiology,” said Dr. Jennifer Giordano, a Farmington Hills psychiatrist.

    I would love to meet up with you in a dark alley Jentsch and give you the benefit of my knowledge!! You’d never be the same again!! Arrogant POS – alas, you have fuck all to be proud of. How does your wife stand your foul breath and filthy, blood begrimed hands near her????

  13. JENTSCH – THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED TO QUEENIE AT O’LEARY’S HANDS.
    Jusfigy this:

    The group’s administrative complaint to the USDA contended that dogs used in O’Leary’s experiments show signs of unrelieved pain, and thus are wrongly classified with the USDA. The protocol for O’Leary’s experiments labels them as USDA Category D, which covers “animals used in research, experiments, or tests where appropriate anesthetic, analgesic or tranquilizing agents are required to avoid pain or distress.”

    The animal rights advocates said in the petition for enforcement that the Wayne State experiments should instead fall under USDA Category E, which includes animals used in research where the investigator “is unable or unwilling to administer anesthetic, analgesic or tranquilizing agents.”

    According to the protocol form for research that the university must file with its Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, experiments in USDA Category E must “identify the condition that places the animals in Category E and provide scientific justification for withholding alleviation of pain/distress.”

    “I don’t know how anyone could look at (the daily progress report) and not see that this animal was in pain,” Richardson said.

    He also said that records indicate Queenie was given Rimadyl for pain relief, which Richardson said was once used as an over-the-counter pain medication for humans. “They didn’t want to give her anything that would change her ability to run on the treadmill,” such as a narcotic, he said.

    In his written analysis of the veterinary records, Richardson said, “while the amount of pain control used pre- and post-operatively appears adequate, the use of Rimadyl for the level of pain and trauma Queenie was experiencing is not.”

    Richardson said the chest cavity is a sensitive area, and that the surgeries in O’Leary’s experiments open the chest, in a procedure known as a thoracotomy, to clamp arteries and veins, and tunnel under the skin, leaving “eight to nine tubes hanging out of the dog.”

    O’Leary’s research protocol shows that up to five surgeries might be performed on dogs in the course of an experiment.

    “Chest tubes are very painful,” Richardson said. “To maintain one for that long — I don’t know any other word but cruel.”

    One local doctor who signed the complaint sent to the USDA said she fundamentally opposes animal testing. “I think we’ve reached a point in current Western medicine where the use of animals can’t teach us anymore about human physiology,” said Dr. Jennifer Giordano, a Farmington Hills psychiatrist.

    Another Oakland County doctor, Joyce Feldman, Ph.D., of Rochester Hills, is also named on the petition for enforcement sent to the USDA, but did not respond to Oakland Press calls seeking comment.

    Wayne State’s statement responding to the complaints against O’Leary said the professor has “been funded continuously by the National Institutes of Health for more than 20 years, he has an international reputation as leader in cardiovascular research, and he serves on the editorial board of major scientific journals. Because his research involves animals, it is subject to surprise inspections, veterinary oversight, and intense scrutiny by the United States Department of Agriculture; his record is exemplary.”

    But veterinarian Richardson disagreed.

    “It seems like the only people benefiting from this are the researchers getting paid to do it,” he said.

    Follow Dustin Blitchok on Twitter @SincerelyDustin

    For the Web:

    Queenie vet records: http://bit.ly/vLNJT0

    Research protocol: http://bit.ly/s1D7cK

    WSU’s response: http://bit.ly/swAMtY

    Complaint to Wayne County prosecutor’s office: http://bit.ly/rIJQKr

    Complaint to USDA: http://bit.ly/tqcSKX

    1. No, I will not justify the misleading and false statements of biased individuals who are determined to stop all research. There is no reason to justify errors and falsehoods.

      Instead, I will simply restate that Veterinary Medical Officers from the USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service visited WSU four times in the past 3 yrs, including in response to these charges. (All the USDA inspection reports are freely available at this website: http://acissearch.aphis.usda.gov/LPASearch/faces/CustomerSearch.jspx . You can search for Wayne State University under Certificate No: 34-R-0014.

      Not one deficiency related to Dr. O’Leary’s research was found.

      I am personally not an expert on Dr. O’Leary’s research, nor have I visited his lab or WSU, but expert veterinary medical inspectors have. They examined questions about pain relief and found no problems. They considered pain categorization and found no problems.

      Who should the public trust? The federal inspectors or a biased individual determined to end research? Common sense makes it clear enough that it’s the inspectors.

      1. Certainly not the federal inspectors (yeah, the same ones who let the meat eaters eat pink slime). The public trust their own sense of decency, they trust the ever growing realization that animals are sentient beings, they trust their conscience, and they trust that should they stand united (as in the civil rights movement, the anti-war rallies, and many other protests throughout time) they will be heard, and things will change!

      2. SO THESE EXPERT VET MED INSPECTORS, DIDENT QUESTION ONCE AS TO WHY QUEENIE WAS IN SO MUCH PAIN AND DISTRESS THAT SHE STARTED BITING AT HER WOUNDS, SHE WAS LIMPING AFTER GETTING HER PAW STUCK IN THE TREADMILL AND STILL MADE TO RUN ON IT, SHE DEFACATED ON THE TREADMILL BECAUSE SHE WAS SO STRESSED AND IN PAIN…WHO WOULD I TRUST..NOT THEM THATS FOR SURE, INCOMPETENCE SPRINGS TO MIND, ITS DISGUSTING WHAT SHE WAS PUT THROUGH AND MADE TO ENDURE…BUT AS YOU SAY THEY ARE TREATED WITH RESPECT, DIGNITY AND GENTLENESS….WHAT A CROCK…

      3. welfare: 1.The health, happiness, and fortunes of a person or group

        Vivisection does not promote animal welfare for the animals being experimented on.

      4. You would not support anything that would stop the money u make off of the torture of animals. Unfortunatly our goverment is in bed with these companies and that is why nothing ever changes. If u really think that testing on animals is what they (the animals) were put here for then u really are stupid. Who the fuck told u that animals where here for u to do as u please. U just feel that u are above the animals, due to the fact that I guess u can talk and make money. Just remember everyone has the power of choice. It looks to me that your choice is money. I mean really do you expect everyone on this planet to live forever. There are diseases and death for a reason to keep the population in check you jackass. The bottom line is It all about money.

    2. The results of the opinion polls conducted are a matter of public record. Look it up. Every single one overwhelmingly against what you do. That’s a fact. You live within a closed world. The scientific community. You, and your colleagues applaud each other on your great humanity and wonderful work. But, outside of your professional bubble, in the real world, the vast majority of people are absolutely sickened by what you do. That’s why your profession cherishes secrecy so much. Because you are terrified of the inevitable public backlash which will occur once people know exactly what you are doing to animals behind closed doors.
      And, just what does dietary choice have to do with this? One can most certainly be totally opposed to vivisection without being vegan. All it takes is a recognition that animal experimentation is a bogus fraudulent branch of science.

      1. Of course one can be opposed to animal research but eat meat. It just doesn’t make any sense. Eating meat has no social benefit. It aids one person for one small moment in time. The next day, you are hungry again and another animal must die.

        Animal research, on the other hand, helps everyone at once. When discoveries are made, we all benefit, and the benefit won’t run out for quite some time. Penicillin, anesthetics, insulin… these are all examples.

        Because animal research is socially beneficial and socially regulated, it is responsible. It is also much ethically justifiable than eating meat, in my opinion.

      2. WELL SAID SONNY STACEY, EXPOSURE IS THE ONE THING THEY DONT WANT, BECAUSE THEN..EVERYONE.. WILL KNOW THE AWFUL TRUTH ABOUT VIVISECTION/RESEARCH/TESTING, WHO WOULD WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SOMEONE WHO PUTS INNOCENT DEFENCELESS ANIMALS THROUGH SUCH TORTURE, I CERTAINLY WOULDENT, I WOULD AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE… ITS FRAUDULANT SCIENCE…

      3. You are correct, Vegan Rabbit. The research project does not help the animal involved. Nor do most human research projects help the individuals involved, even when they are suffering from a serious disease. And before you claim “informed consent”, let me suggest to you that informed consent is no where near as clear as you suggest. If it was, we wouldn’t need Institutional Review Boards (the human research equivalent of an IACUC); all you would need is a form marked “sign here to participate”. We accept that there are many cases where consent can’t be given freely (in the case of people with major mental illnesses, people without insurance who might be hoping for free care during the study or people who need the money they might earn from being a subject). In the case of both IRBs and IACUCs, these committees serve as proxy decision makers for the subjects to ensure that the harm done is minimized.

        That said, the research project does not necessarily harm a subject. Given your descriptions and perception of research, I think you would be stunned by just how many research projects involve no harm to the subject at all. And when they do, they are often no more significant than an injection or surgery conducted with complete anesthesia and pain relief. You can disbelieve that, but it’s a fact anyway.

        Research rarely, if ever, benefits the individual under study. It benefits the larger society. In all cases, the question is how one can limit the harm done. In animal research, the proper planning of an experiment helps to avoid this through refinement and replacement and IACUC review.

  14. Wayne State University violates Michigan’s animal cruelty law with painful forced-exercise heart experiments on dogs. The dogs are forced to endure lengthy treadmill tests after multiple major surgeries; in violation of Michigan’s ban against cruelly working animals.

    Wayne State’s experiments have resulted in unrelieved suffering and death for hundreds of dogs obtained from state animal shelters.

    Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine states in it’s legal complaint, “Wayne State University’s use of dogs in cardiovascular forced exercise experiments does not represent the ‘humane’ research protected by Michigan law, and we request that Wayne State University be charged with felony animal cruelty under MCL §750.50(2)(b) for cruelly working hundreds of dogs by forcing them to endure lengthy treadmill tests after multiple major surgeries.

    (bethevoiceofangels.blogspot – Nadira R Shah)

    Jentsch – you rephrased the question put by V. Santiago in an inaccurate manner. I hear you had problems with your car recently. Hope all has been rectified.

    1. The USDA inspector spent 3 days pouring over the records at Wayne State, interviewing the laboratory staff as well as Dr. O’Leary and his colleagues. They spent copious amounts of time inspecting animals surgically prepared exactly like Queenie – both several months after surgery and one week after, observed the dogs freely walking/running on the treadmill (and yes, dogs freely run, you cannot force a dog to run if they do not want to do so, anyone with any actually knowledge of the area knows this). At the end they concluded that Dr. O’Leary runs an exemplary laboratory and there was no evidence whatsoever to support the charges. Wayne State subsequently demanded to the PCRM that their false accusations of illegal experiments be removed from their web site which then then did. Case closed. No animal abuse whatsoever. But of course, you will not be swayed by little things like facts…you are blinded by your irrational beliefs.

      1. Do you mean poring? (as opposed to pouring) – slight difference!

        No dog wants to run on a treadmill after having major invasive surgeries. Neither would a dog, defecating in fear as she was forced to run, be happy slipping and sliding in her own excrement.

        PCRM did not make false accusations. Two of O’Leary’s own colleagues have been in touch with one of our team, giving further information concerning his (your) barbaric treatment of animals, also an extremely arrogant and dismissive attitude to ‘colleagues.’ They have also intimated that ‘perversions’ not yet brought to light will end this reprobate’s career.

        Unfortunately, your colleagues will not allow us to give names and, as we cannot substantiate these accusations, they cannot be published – yet! However, be assured that those who need to have full access to this information are in receipt of it!

        MR. O’Leary (we do not recognise Vivisectors as Doctors) is not only a sociopath with no moral compass, he is a predator whose days would seem to be numbered. As previously indicated – Et Tu Brute!

      2. I MAY WEAR GLASSES BUT I SURE AINT BLIND TO WHAT I SEE AND READ, WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE PUT ON A TREADMILL AFTER HAVING MAJOR INVASIVE SURGERY/SURGERIES AND MADE TO RUN..?? VETS I KNOW TELL ANIMAL OWNERS OF PETS WHO HAVE HAD SURGERY TO STOP THEM RUNNING AROUND OR JUMPING UP, BE THEY CATS OR DOGS AS THIS CAN BURST STITCHES, AND DO THE PETS HARM, YET ITS OK TO SHOVE A DOG THATS HAD MORE THAN ONE SURGERY ON A TREADMILL AND MAKE IT RUN TILL IT ENDS UP DEAD..THATS.. A FACT … ISENT IT… THAT IS ANIMAL ABUSE AND CRUELTY….IF ANY HOSPITAL DID THIS TO A PATIENT AFTER HEART SURGERY THEY WOULD BE SUED FOR GROSS MISCONDUCT….BELIEVE THAT……

  15. You will not justify, because you cannot justify. Do you know who Annie is??? I suggest you do not get into a debate – hahaha – you are likely to come off worse to say the least!

    Animal-to-human transplants, otherwise known as transgenic transplants or xenotransplants, are offered as the way forward. Xenotransplants may save a few lives (assuming the transplant is not rejected and no complications arise), but in doing so could put the whole human race at risk.

    A number of new diseases have recently arisen, including Ebola and AIDS, against which the human population has no resistance. One possibility is that African tropical rainforest destruction (acute environmental stress) has caused diseases to jump species. When a disease jumps species, both disease and host are ill-adjusted to each other and the result is likely to be rapid deterioration and death of the host. This has been seen with both AIDS and Ebola. AIDS is thought to have jumped to humans from monkeys.

    In Hong Kong a virus jumped from chickens to humans, resulting in the death of the human hosts. The entire Hong Kong population of chickens had to be destroyed.

    Xenotransplants are likely to transfer unknown viruses against which we have no defences, no cure. The possibility of pig-to-human organ transplant may be a transplant surgeon’s dream option, it is the virologist’s worst nightmare.

    Viruses are able to insert themselves into bacteria and with the help of genetic material from the virus turn the bacteria into a deadly killer. Unlike higher life forms bacteria lack a species barrier and possess the ability to transfer DNA laterally, that is between bacteria.

  16. Science which is profit driven cannot be said to be science at all. Knowledge and understanding should be the aim of scientific research. Treading the same, centuries worn path of vivisection is worthless science. So what is the point of conducting these experiments on animals?…

    Taxpayers money is being used to torment animals, identifying patentable chemicals for the benefit of drug companies. In turn, in addition to the research grant from the government (taxpayers money), the university will receive massive payouts also from the pharmaceutical companies concerned. A win/win situation for the univeristy.

    Laboratories have rapidly become corrupt, sadistic factories of death for sentient beings in order for the sociopaths, the greedy and corrupt to line their pockets with blood money.

    No animal research is predictive insofar as human reaction is concerned. None! A list is attached giving examples of the way in which drugs tested on animals will induce catastrophic effects if used on human beings.

    Facts and figures given are from official records and also the sworn scientific opinion of notable people in the medical sector (some of whom were once vivisectors but who are now the most severe of critics). This but a very small fraction of information we have – and which we will use to destroy the myth perpetrated by the Vivisection Comples.

  17. JENTSCH – OPEN YOUR EARS AND LISTEN – THEN DEBATE

    No ‘major breakthroughs’ are imminent and no future treatment/drugs or vaccines are reliant upon continued animal testing.

    Biomedical research and Animal Experimentation is fraudulent, misleading and costly in terms of finance and human lives.

    Useless research, facilitated by government grants, public ignorance and apathy continues apace. Government is not a neutral force. The health of people, the humane treatment of animals is secondary to economic interests.

    The Pharmaceutical Industry and plying of drugs for profit is more important than people’s health.

    This is a fact: Tests on animals are not predictive for treatment in humans. Not only is this experimentation worthless, it uses resources which could and should be more effectively be diverted elsewhere.

    Animals and humans do not contract the same diseases. Hence, animal testing & research focusses on artificially induced symptoms and disease. Drugs which may prove effective in treating these artificially induced symptoms are not necessarily of benefit to people.

    Thalidomide is a classic example of animal testing proven wrong. This drug was tested safely on thousands of animals before coming onto the German market in the 1950’s. Yet the tragic, horrific consequences of that drug are apparent even today.

    Penicillin kills cats and guinea pigs but has saved countless human lives. How much sooner could it have been made available if not for adverse results when tested on animals.

    Arsenic is not poisonous to rats or sheep.

    Morphine is a sedative for humans but a stimulant for horses, goats, cats.

    Digitalis lowers heart rate in cardiac patients but raises blood pressure in dogs.

    Clioquinot was tested safely on animals. It was intended to treat diarrhea in humans – but actually caused diarrhea. Additionally, over 30,000 cases were reported of blindness/paralysis in human patients. Thousands of human deaths occurred.

    A Quote, to sum up:

    “There are no alternatives to animal experimentation, for one can only talk of alternatives if these replace soemthing of the same worth. And there is nothing quite as USELESS, MISLEADING & HARMFUL as ANIMAL EXPERIMENTATION”.

    (Professor Pietro Croce, MD).

  18. “Who should the public trust? The federal inspectors or a biased individual determined to end research? Common sense makes it clear enough that it’s the inspectors. ”
    (The foregoing is your question Jentsch) …..

    A self-regulatory board, with the Dean of WSU sitting on the board does not, to me, indicate unbiased or safe judgement:

    STATUTE 333.2672 provides for an Animal Research Advisory Board. They basically have powers of inspection and are tasked with overseeing the “humane” treatment of animals used for research. It seems to be self-regulatory with a number of Deans sitting on the Board, one of them (wait for it) the Dean of the medical school of Wayne State. . I see that two members of the board are to be representatives of the Michigan Federation of humane Societies.

    USE OF DOGS AND CATS FOR RESEARCH – ACT 224 OF 1969

    Section 5 of the Use of Cats and Dogs for Research Act number 224 of 1969 makes provision for the promulgation of Rules as are necessary to govern the handling of dogs and cats by dealers and research facilities.
    287.385 Rules; promulgation.
    Sec. 5. The director is authorized to promulgate rules in accordance with Act No. 88 of the Public Acts of
    1943, as amended, being sections 24.71 to 24.80 of the Compiled Laws of 1948, and subject to Act No. 197
    of the Public Acts of 1952, as amended, being sections 24.101 to 24.110 of the Compiled Laws of 1948, as
    are necessary to govern the handling of dogs and cats by dealers and research facilities, to promote their
    health, well-being and safety.

    Complaints may be passed to that Advisory Board referred to earlier. The problem with that is obvious.

    1. The Animal Research Advisory Board has nothing to do with the USDA. The former is a state board. The latter is a federal regulatory agency. The USDA is completely independent from WSU and has no agenda other than to ensure the Animal Welfare Act is observed. Yet, they have no issues with Dr. O’Leary’s work.

  19. Your two supporters are extremely quiet – could it be that they don’t know what they are supporting???? (I discount Darioringach, he obviously has mental health issues).

    1. I don’t need supporters. I am the supporter. I support all my colleagues who work hard in laboratories every day to make the world a better place. I support their efforts, and I support their humanity. Unlike those that simply try to tear others down, they produce real change and real advancement. Their work makes people’s lives better, and I will never stop supporting that.

      1. How’s that cure for cancer coming along??? Millions upon millions of animals killed in labs over the past 50 years. Meanwhile, cancer rates contribute to rise. Even cancer researchers now admit that it’s time for a major rethink.

      2. I SUPPORT ALL THOSE WHO DETEST AND ABHOR VIVISECTORS AND EXPERIMENTING RESEARCHERS..

      3. What the hell is wrong with you? If you want to really help the human race then step into the 21st century and use altenative testing methods. Oh I forgot its not as profitable. Sorry my bad!!!! Im sorry I truely believe you enjoy the terror and pain you inflick on animals. If you did not enjoy it you would be more open to alternative methods, and maybe even use some.

      1. VIVISECTORS AND EXPERIMENTING RESEARCHERS TORTURE MUTILATE AND MURDER INNOCENT DEFENCELESS ANIMALS WHO SCREAM IN PAIN AND TERROR, UNLESS THEY CUT THEIR VOCALS CHORDS SO THEY CANT HEAR THE ANIMALS SCREAMING…..HER NAMES CAMILLE BY THE WAY… FABULOUS LADY..SUPPORT HER TOO.

  20. Here are just a few of the many alternatives to animal experimentation:

    HUMAN CELLS – Cheap, quick and easy to test new drugs on. HUMAN TISSUE (Including surgical waste) – Can reveal how a drug will affect a particular organ. MICROFLUIDICS (or ‘Lab On A Chip’ technology) – Uses interconnected human tissue samples to mimic drug effects upon the whole human body. CLINICAL TRIAL IN A TEST TUBE – Produces mini immune systems from donated blood to test drugs and vaccines. HUMAN DNA CHIPS – Used in conjunction with tissue reveal how drugs affect cells and DNA. COMPUTER MODELS – Can now offer virtual organs, virtual patients and even virtual clinical trials. MICRODOSING – Miniscule doses of new drugs given to volunteers reveal how they are metabolised in humans safely and with unsurpassed accuracy.

    It seems to me that with all these, and many other alternative techniques that those who cling to animal experimentation as their preferred choice are actually people unwilling to adapt to change. Instead of embracing new technologies they seem determined to cling to the old outdated techniques which they have always used. Hopefully, there will be an influx of new researchers who will be more open to using the new technologies, rather than clinging to the ‘We’ve always done it this way’ mentality of cut, poison, mutilate.

      1. Dear Dario,

        I’m sure you have sweet memories of this letter , do you not?

        You all seem to have a problem that some of us are not as educated in the sciences as you ….which I must say I am very thankful for!

        However Dario, would you please explain this letter……as my wee mind is unable to comprehend things such as “lacks any clinical relevance ” or “At best this experiment and others like it inform us only of the visual system in monkeys”

        Enlighten me if you will ..

        August 29, 2006

        To Whom It May Concern:

        As a neurologist, I would like to comment on the study “Spatial overlap of ON and OFF subregions and its relation to response modulation ratio in macaque primary visual cortex”, by Mata ML and Ringach DL, published in Journal of Neurophysiology, 2004.

        This research lacks any clinical relevance and is unlikely to provide any benefit for human patients of neurological diseases. The principle reason why this is the case is that there are numerous differences in the neuroanatomy and physiology of the central nervous system (CNS) between nonhuman primates and humans. These differences include locations of specialized areas in the brain, expression and function of specific neurological markers, and projection and survival capabilities of neuronal cells. It is a well known fact that the visual system of macaque monkeys differs in considerable ways from that of humans, both in structure and function. For example, humans have visual processing areas that do not exist in monkeys, the Visual 1 area comprises 10% of the total monkey cortex, but only 3% in humans, and anatomically corresponding visual areas in monkeys and humans can perform very different functions.

        Nonhuman primates are poor surrogates of complex, human CNS function. At best this experiment and others like it inform us only of the visual system in monkeys. These experiments are a waste of our precious and limited health care and research resources. Rather than continuing studies such as this one, we will do our patients more good by focusing our efforts on studying human neural pathology and physiology.

        Sincerely,

        Aysha Akhtar, MD, MPH
        Senior Medical and Research Advisor

      2. “. It is a well known fact that the visual system of macaque monkeys differs in considerable ways from that of humans, both in structure and function.”

        Wrong. Old world macaques and humans share basically the same organization all the way up to primary visual cortex.

        ” For example, humans have visual processing areas that do not exist in monkeys, the Visual 1 area”

        There is no such “Visual 1” area — it doesn’t exist.

        “Nonhuman primates are poor surrogates of complex, human CNS function. At best this experiment and others like it inform us only of the visual system in monkeys.”

        Wrong again…

        “Aysha Akhtar, MD, MPH”

        Who is she?

        No I have bad memory of all the nonsense that animal rights people write.

      3. Dario – we know that there are MDs who claim that HIV is not the cause of AIDS and that vaccines cause autism. As with Drs. Akhtar and Greek, these people show that having completed medical school does not translate into astute scientific knowledge.

      4. In this case, I think the answer is yes. Sticking too close to the facts means accepting that everything we are saying is the truth. SO, instead, they make things – like inane toxic responses in cats and the names of brain regions – up.

    1. Thank you, Dario…. As I have said before (http://speakingofresearch.com/2011/10/12/all-in-a-days-work-scientists-promote-alternatives-to-live-animal-research/), alternatives are what all scientists strive for, and we develop them whenever we can. How about all of you that are hurling hatred on this blog stop for one day and actually try to develop a viable alternative to animal research? If you are successful, I’ll gladly popularize it and use it myself (and yes, I am on the record!)

  21. His supporters are shaking their heads and laughing at people that trot out made-up statistics and long-discredited arguments to support their position. If you don’t like animal research, don’t take medicines or vaccines. The vast majority of the public supports responsible use of animals in biomedical research, and researchers that are working for the benefit of human health are not going to stop because of a tiny fanatical minority with an extreme and delusional view.

    1. Great comeback there Mark! Rather than putting forward a coherent argument yourself you just state that our claims are incorrect. If that is truly so, then they should be easily refuted. But, I’m definitely not seeing that happening here. Jentsch is the one struggling to justify his misuse of millions of dollars of taxpayers money with fraudulent research.

    2. I don’t like animal research, I want it to stop, and I want my tax dollars to stop paying you. The vast majority of the public turn their heads because it gives them nightmares to see what you do in the name of “science”. We are changing that. Much greater scientific minds than yours will ever be know this, speak out against it, and use ethical non animal research to find treatments for humans that work! These great minds are also changing that. Are they delusional as well in your “tiny” mind?

    3. LIKE IVE SAID THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PUBLIC WOULD VOMIT IF THEY SAW WHAT THEY DID TO THE ANIMALS, HAVE .. YOU .. WATCHED ANY OF THE VIDEOS OF WHAT THEY DO AND HOW THEY TREAT THE ANIMALS MARK??. SEEN THE MUTILATED BODIES OF THESE ANIMALS.. IF NOT WATCH SOME.. THEY WILL TURN YOUR STOMACHE….

    4. The only benefit from animal research is the quality of the researchers lifestyle!
      And seriously, if you think your blatant attempts to ridicule others lack of education in the sciences, or any other field are having an effect of any kind, you are sorely mistaken, at least on my end, in fact if anything, I get quite a laugh at your depth of ignorance.
      Diversity is an important ingredient for today’s world which is quickly crumbling around each one of us ..
      When the day comes and this country lies in ruin and mayhem, due to economic collapse, war and many other possibilities…Where will your education take you then? When money is no longer of use and the richest of men are beggars in the street!
      Oh yes, it will be I laughing, as I pass you in the street, with your filthy torn clothes and parched lips, begging for a crumb of bread!
      Education will then mean nothing, so I suggest to you,”laugh while you can!”
      These things I speak of are in sight, and not I, nor any of my people have a thing to do with the happenings on the horizon, we are the ones attempting to stop it!

  22. These are not made up statistics and as for long-discredited arguments – you will find that this most vehemently applies to vivsection. Many are arguments that may be attributed to people who lived centures ago. Even then, animal testing was found to be repellant and unjustifiable.

    Vivisectors are not working for the good of humanity. They are in this business due to a desire for power and wealth – simultaneously satisfying their sadistic lust and sexual perversions. Heard of Kimberley Lindsey – she has something in common wirh O’Leary, according to a couple of his colleagues. Et Tu Brute – it may not be an animal liberator that brings about ‘your’ downfall. The public consciousness will be awakened and people like Jentsch and O’Leary will be shown for the abominations they are.

    Mark, you obviously know little or nothing of the subject. You are pathetic!

  23. And Jentsch – get your facts straight about O’Leary, PCRM and the medication that was given to Queenie. Rimadyl – over the counter medication that did nothing to alleviate her pain.

    “Dogs like to run” – what an intellectually challenged individual you are. Queenie was defecating as she ran, slipping and sliding in her own excrement – do you think she found that preferable to running in a field – without the terrible assault on her poor bloodied body??

    You people will not be laughing for long. Cars are no longer the target I believe – you are!!! You will be discredited, subsequent to being ruined!

      1. I know full well what Rimadyl is used for and also that it was insufficient to counter the level of pain Queenie was experiencing subsequent to numerous invasive procedures. Did you read Richardson’s opinion –

        – “In his written analysis of the veterinary records, Richardson said, “while the amount of pain control used pre- and post-operatively appears adequate, the use of Rimadyl for the level of pain and trauma Queenie was experiencing is not.”

        As for ‘threats’ I do not make threats. Prognosis certainly!

        You are not a particularly bright individual Jentsch. Particularly arrogant and vile – but of inferior intellect! Guess that’s one of the reasons you are in this ‘profession.’

      2. Dr. Richardson’s analysis is not meaningful to me or to anyone else that knows anything about veterinary medicine. The Veterinary Medical Officers of the USDA have reviewed the protocol and found it to be adequate. Carprofen is given as a sole analgesic to dogs having surgery in virtually every clinic by the best veterinarians in the country. That is what matters and that is a fact.

        Prognosis, threats, etc: Call them what you will, but they are all puerile nonsense.

  24. David ‘Tiller’ Jentsch – It’s all about the money. It’s also about a public who are not yet aware of exactly what is toing on:

    On 8 December 1998 the go-ahead was given in the UK for the cloning of human embryos for the production of human body parts. On the international scene at least 7 companies are believed to be in the race to be the first to clone a human.

    Late 1998, two researchers at a fertility clinic in South Korea cloned a human embryo and took it as far as four cells before aborting the experiment. In Canada, a bizarre religious cult, Ryellianans, who believe man was cloned in the image of alien creatures believe it is their sacred duty to clone humans. They have established an offshore operation in the Bahamas called CloneAid, and are charging $100,000 for each successfully cloned human. They claim to have the help of many leading researchers in the field. Ian Wilmutt, the creator of Dolly, has claimed human cloning was not viable and that it is unethical. Following the inducement of a large amount of US dollars, he is now working on the creation of human clones for tissue generation. The creation of clones for tissue is the first step towards creating a fully functioning human clone.

    There is an existing and unfulfilled demand for the cloning of pets. A Texan millionaire has offered $5 million to have his pet dog cloned. At least two companies have been established in the US to promote the cloning of pets. Wealthy Saudis are trying to get racehorses cloned to enable them to rig races. Money talks.

    There exists a multimillion dollar world-wide trade in human sperm and eggs.

    The downfall of humanity will be due to the abominations carried out by fraudulent ‘research scientists’ in laboratories across the globe.

    1. JENTSCH, I AM SURE THAT THE BEST VETS AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE NOT GIVING CARPROFEN TO DOGS WITH TUBES/CATHETERS HANGING FROM THE BODIES ARE THEY..

      1. Ahh, yes they are. Many dogs in clinic that have had surgery or imaging have venous catheters in their body, and they are treated with carprofen for pain relief. You guys should really visit a veterinary clinic before you make statements like this.

      2. read what i said..i dident say in their bodies i said hanging from their bodies…and im a girl not a.. guy .. maybe you should re-study anatomy… human not animal.

    1. Are these dogs also forced to run on treadmills, slithering in their own excrement until they drop dead or need to be euthanised?? I doubt that is normal post operative procedure is it!

      1. Would Jentsch care to answer the above question – is this normal post operative procedure?? Your above comment appears to negate the fact that this animal was subjected to anguish and torment.

  25. Humans/humanity is like a virus on this planet. We destroy everything we touch. And like any virus, we will continue on until we have destroyed our host. Then and only the will this planet begin the long repair process that is only possible when there are no humans on the planet. However, I, for one, can not just sit and wait for the end. I must continue fighting against slavery and murder of any kind. The only value that is of any import is love. Love does not discriminate as you do. So sorry you had a hard childhood David

      1. Self-hate, no. Guilt and shame, yes. And anyone with any ability to feel empathy for other beings would feel the same. Where does that leave you?

      2. Right where we started, Debra. Empathy is why we are here. Empathy and a desire to stop pain and distress is why we do what we do. The person who left the voicemail for me gets that. Why can’t you?

      3. Your empathy is limited or you wouldn’t do what you do. Limited empathy is no empathy at all.

      4. Sorry, Debra, you got it all wrong. I completely understand that you have a passion and love of animals and want the best for them. But to translate that into hatred of others and the vile comments left here is just plain sad.

        I am surrounded by scientists every day, and I see how they conduct themselves during research. There are thousands of biomedical researchers on my campus alone. They come from every walk of life – every age group – every nationality – every socioeconomic status – they are gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual and every other beautiful variant on sexuality – they are kind and gentle and care about animals and people alike. They don’t deserve this hatred. It really has to stop.

      5. I believe the word you are searching for, David, is sympathy. Empathy involves imagining yourself in someone else’s place. Sympathy involves feeling pity for someone else. In regards to how you must feel about the animals you experiment on, I would say that sympathy is a better description. If you truly were feeling the empathy you would either stop vivisecting or you would volunteer to have experiments done on yourself.

      6. No, Vegan Rabbit. You are wrong in this case. Empathy is the ability to share in the pain of people who are suffering from disease and loss.

        Empathy is source of my feeling when I heard this… https://unlikelyactivist.com/2012/06/22/a-solemn-voice-in-support-of-medical-researchers/

        Empathy is the motivation for research.

        And empathy is why we refine, reduce and replace. Empathy is why the real work of preserving animal welfare is done by scientists in the course of their work.

  26. David – if you truly cared about finding cures for human sickness you would take a smaller salary, live in a smaller home and donate some of your inflated, blood money to more research. You are driven by ego and money. You are a monster.

  27. It is completely about money. There is no attempt in most cases to find a cure. Why, when that would only mean ending the funding of a vivisector’s lavish lifestyle? Take O’Leary for example. He was awarded a $916,200 grant by the NIH in 2009 for years 13 &14 of his ongoing project “Blood Pressure Control During Exercise in Heart Failure”. In an article in Wayne State University’s own newspaper O’Leary stated in relation to those with heart failure having severe responses to even mild activity “What causes these markedly abnormal responses to exercise in heart failure is unknown”. This year O’Leary was awarded a further NIH grant of $1.56 Million for years 15 to 18 of his project. Again he stated “What causes these markedly abnormal responses to exercise in heart failure is unknown”. Don’t take my word for it. Google it! So David, you mean to justify that in 14 years with all this money, this ‘scientific’ genius hasn’t come up with one finding??? Either he is extremely incompetent, or this is a case of blatant fraud. I think the American tax payer should be very interested in this since heart disease is one of the biggest killers and doctors (lol) like O’Leary are doing nothing at all to find a cure for it. Just lining their corrupt pockets.

    1. Lauren,
      You are demonstrating your vast ignorance of science and the grant writing process. Those comments are introductory. If you read the actual grant it summarizes what was accomplished in the previous grant period and then what new questions were developed as direct results of these findings. I credit David for actually trying to engage in conversations. I have so little patience with those so blinded by their ideology they cannot or will not recognize their own lack of education and feel that they are indeed scientific experts when they have little or no training.

      1. People dont need to be scientific experts to know causing harm and pain to a sentient being is wrong. You can justify it however you wish – it’s still wrong. You can tout your superior education and intellect until the end of time – you’re still wrong.

        It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know. ~ Henry David Thoreau

        I am not interested to know whether vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn’t…. The pain which it inflicts upon unconsenting animals is the basis of my enmity toward it, and it is to me sufficient justification of the enmity without looking further. ~Mark Twain

        “Our task must be to widen our circle of compassion, to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. ”Albert Einstein (1879-1955);Theoretical Physicist, Philosopher, Nobel Prize Winner

      2. IF ALL VIVISECTION AND ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS WERE STOPPED TOMORROW WHAT WOULD YOU DO FOR A JOB..??.. I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU, BECAUSE YOU CALL PEOPLE UNEDUCATED BECAUSE THEY HAVE OPNIONS, AND LAURENS RIGHT WITH ALL THE VAST AMOUNTS OF MONEY THATS PUMPED INTO SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, YOU HAVENT EVEN FOUND A… CURE … FOR THE COMMON COLD…BECAUSE IF A CURES FOUND YOUR NOT NEEDED…..

  28. Jentsch – Research laboratories now have the reputation of being little more than corpse producing factories. Places where atrocities take place with impunity, by moral degenerates.

    Untold damage to the reputation of establishments complicit in these crimes will ensue via the intoxicating contemplation of individual university’s handling of these case and by the utter outrage felt by an awakened public consciousness.

    ‘Resarch scientists’ are being richly rewarded for atrocities committed – and for the damage to universities that now pertains globally.

    PCRM reports will obviously add weight to our protest.

    The grief, anger and outrage thousands feel toward vivisectors and, by association, their university will be utilised effectively in order to bring criminals to justice and cleanse society of degenerate corrupt sadists of which you are undoubtedly one!

    Devoid Tiller Jentsch – you ask what alternatives there are to animal testing. Even with your limited intellect, you know full well about these alternatives!

    Existing data; Cell cultures and sophiscticated scanning techniques; Mathematical and Compter models; (CAT/MRI/PET scans); Epidemiology; In-vitro; Physical & chemical analyses; Genetic research; human & veterinary research; human volunteers (given your dedication, perhaps offering up your own unlovely, flabby self)….. on and on the list the list of alternatives continues ..

    Perhaps you would consider contacting Ray Greek, who I know would be happy to enlighten you!

    “Ever since the days of Galen, who put back the study of anatomy several hundred years by basing his conclusions on his experience dissecting pigs, practicing doctors have been aware that animals are so different from humans –anatomically and physiologically-that the results obtained from experiments on animals are pointless.

    Only really SECOND RATE SCIENTISTS still believe that such experiments are worthwhile. But, sadly, the scientists who use animal are just that-universally second rate. We suffer from different diseases and we respond in different ways to drugs. Using animals to ‘try out’ products intended for humans is at best useless and at worst-as with Thalidomide-dangerously misleading.” (Dr. Vernon Coleman)

    You are not only a second rate scientist but a second rate human being and an utter waste of oxygen…. Just like your despicable cronies. You will learn, Devoid Tiller Jentsch that, in the long run, crime does not pay that well!

    1. What a waste of brain neurotransmitters to even take the time to respond to your uneducated ramblings. Go and get a college degree in a hard science, and then take 4-6 years of graduate school to obtain a Ph.D., then go do 3-6 years of post-doctoral Fellowship at a prestigious research institution and then you may be qualified to have a debate on the importance of research….maybe….otherwise, just shut up and go work on a cause that you may actually have the limited intellect to understand.

      1. Forget about your attempt to insult me – it would only be an insult if directed by someone on an intellectual par. But you are also discounting what is being said by Dr. Vernon Coleman, Drs Ray and Jean Greek, PCRM and other notables who deplore your fraudulent reseach. Your cyclical regurgitation of the same “what a waste of brain neurotransmitters” is pathetic and puerile, to say the least.

      2. HIT A NERVE HAS SHE..? IVE READ OF GREAT SURGEONS DOING ALL OF THE ABOVE WITHOUT.. EXPERIMENTING ON .. ONE ANIMAL …

  29. Jentsch keeps mentioning the USDA and contacting your legislators, as if we did not have a totally corrupt government completely controlled by the money of big corporations and institutions. Legislators are only interested in representing those who fund their campaigns, such as Animal Agriculture and the Vivisection Complex.

    The big donors and their lobbyists literally write the laws which regulate them. They sponsor laws, under the guise of anti-terrorism, which tramples on our constitutional rights. They control law enforcement agencies, as well as the USDA and all its departments, with officials often having once worked for those being inspected, or looking forward to high paying jobs when they leave the government. Their inspections are a farce and any argument which gives them any validity are worthless.

  30. PCRM and other REAL DOCTORS KNOW that Cancer comes from Consuming Sugar, Highly Processed Foods must MOST OF ALL ANimal Protein in Form of Meat, DAIRY, Eggs ……!!! Cancer Research is a Fraud!!! it is Prooven that People were healed by addapting a Vegan Diet with a large Portion of Raw Foods of course Foods must be NOT GMO and Organic, but u ain’t fooling noone, its funny how u been avoiding to answer the Comments about the smoking Beaggles which are Facts!!! u can not deny actual facts that people have SEEN with their Own Eyes, u can not UNDO whistleblowers Proof that Millions now have seen…….

  31. Here is a Statement from our Group of Medical Doctors who are opposed against ANY ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS, what u wanna call them Extremist also?? LOL

    Why we are opposed to animal experiments

    Animal experiments have to be rejected for ethical reasons. Animals, too, must be allowed the right to live according to the basic needs of their species. The use of defenceless animals of any species as disposable tools and testing systems for research and science is unethical. Even, if animal experiments were useful – which is not the case – they would ethically not be justifiable. Rather than concentrating purely on what they can do, medical researchers should also take into account what it is ethical to do.
    Animal experiments have to be rejected for medical reasons. Experiments on animals are not a valid method of researching the different causes of human diseases nor of developing treatments for such diseases. Animals are artificially damaged to create so-called “models” which are used to mimic human diseases. Apart from some symptoms these “models” have hardly any similarities with the human diseases which are often chronic and may have psychological causes, as well as causes related to susceptibility, nutrition and environment. In the animal experiment these factors – and especially their interactions – cannot be reproduced. Using animal testing, in spite of millions of animal victims and enormous economic investments the medical research system has failed to make real breakthroughs in the fight against the main diseases of today (e.g. cancer, heart and circulation diseases, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, allergies, etc.), contrary to its countless promises.
    Animal experiments have to be rejected for scientific reasons. The results of animal experiments cannot be reliably transferred to humans. The animal experiment cannot lead to a reliable statement about whether and to what extent the human and animal organism react in the same way. In all cases the same test has to be repeated on humans, with unknown risks and unpredictable results. Before this any statement is pure speculation. A consequence of this unscientific extrapolation from laboratory animals to humans is that drugs have had to be withdrawn from the market because of unforeseen hazards or even lethal side-effects in humans – effects which were not seen in animals.
    Results from animal tests may have certain value for the same species, but they do not allow conclusions about effectiveness, tolerance nor safety for humans. The reason why many drugs and medical procedures are relatively safe can not be put down to animal experiments, but to the fact that all drugs have to be tested on humans, in the so-called clinical trials required by law.
    Animal based research leads to an overvaluing of the natural sciences in medicine. The human body is regarded as a sort of bio-machine and diseases as biochemical or physiological deviations which can be repaired using chemical, surgical or radiological means. The consequence is an unacceptable high-tech- , spare-part-, test tube-medicine, based on outdated mechanistical thinking and the believe that everything is possible. Vital aspects of the processes of disease and healing, such as social, spiritual and intellectual aspects, are ignored. Traditional medical ideas about healing, the dignity of patients and even death are destroyed by a materialistic point of view.
    Researching the real causes of our illnesses is much more useful and promising and is even cheaper than more and more experiments on defenceless animals. Extensive studies with patients and healthy people have shown the impact of life-style on the origin and process of different diseases. It has clearly been shown that the diseases of our civilization are mainly caused by smoking, alcohol abuse, poor nutrition, stress, lack of exercise and others. No animal has to suffer and die to investigate these important factors.

  32. Freedomveg
    I repeat what I posted above to you as well…..

    What a waste of brain neurotransmitters to even take the time to respond to your uneducated ramblings. Go and get a college degree in a hard science, and then take 4-6 years of graduate school to obtain a Ph.D., then go do 3-6 years of post-doctoral Fellowship at a prestigious research institution and then you may be qualified to have a debate on the importance of research….maybe….otherwise, just shut up and go work on a cause that you may actually have the limited intellect to understand.

    1. YOUR SOUNDING LIKE A BROKEN RECORD NOW, YOUR REPEATING YOURSELF, REPEATING YOURSELF, WHY DO YOU GET SO CRANKY WHEN PEOPLE QUOTE STATEMENTS FROM QUALIFIED DOCTORS..?? I REALLY HOPE YOUR NOT TRYING TO IMPOSE YOUR VIEWS ONTO US.. THATS NAUGHTY..

    2. you show what you are by dismissing what other doctors say about vivisection, you think they are wrong and your right, your just trying to .. impose .. your views onto us.. funny isent that what you accused camille marino of…why should people shut up because they are saying things you dont like to hear, the truth about vivisection has been brought out into the open and you dont like it, do you.

  33. Well Donal, at least you’re finally replying. You still haven’t answered why your ‘research’ still hasn’t provided any credible results in over 14 years. I think that in itself answers the question of what the funding you are getting is being used for. You are merely funding your own occupation. You are not fooling any of us. I don’t need a degree in science to recognise fraud when I see it.

  34. DOL – Couldn’t be Donal O’Leary by any chance could it???

    Many of those speaking against you are far better qualified – and not educated beyond their intellectual capabilities – a malaise that is obvious in DOL and Devoid Tiller Jentsch!

    What we also have, and you do not, is the ability to show compassion and empathise with others. There is obviously a problem with your frontal lobe & white matter. Maybe you should start studying each other. Draw straws and see who will be the lucky one first to go under under the knife!

    Sociopaths (such as yourself) are adept at convincing the guillible that animal research is vital. The corrupt need no convincing – they are happy to be complicit. Your narcissistic behaviour will have dire consequences – and you are now becoming aware of that aren’t you?? If not, you should be! Many of us will lay down our lives to bring your reign to an end!

    Vivisectors are motivated by greed and a need for power over the helpless, with no ability to show empathy or compassion. Easily able to rationalise the atrocities committed in the name of ‘research science’ and bolstered by government and the pharmaceutical industry. You are no more than con merchants, who continuously maim, mutilate, torture and murder innocent sentient beings.

    If you were allowed to research using human beings with learning difficulties or others who are vulnerable in the community, there is little doubt that you would have no compunction in doing so!

    You will be stopped!

  35. The tenability of debate pro vivisection on defenceless animals is absurb.One can not reason with imbecile mentality. Believing a few letters after one,s name leads into one being the intellectual better, the arrogance within ignorance to be expected from the unevolved.

  36. What it means to be an AR commenter:

    1) Make up as many clever names to call researchers. If you can’t think of any new ones, just recycle those that you remember from the 2nd grade playground

    2) Repeat as often as possible some unverified statement you read on a website somewhere; defend it as dogma

    3) Refer to so-called experts that no one has ever heard of and that trumpet points of view that no real experts agree with

    4) Engage near exclusively in ad hominem attacks so that no one realizes that you have no grasp of the scientific, veterinary or ethical issues involved

    5) Pepper your comments with idle threats and taunts, but when called on them, fail to have the balls to defend your statements for what they are

    6) Post the same tired point of view time and time again, with the thought that someone may actually start believing them if it is said often enough

    Yes, that just about sums up each and every anti-science comment here.

    1. Being anti vivisection is most certainly not being “anti-science “. It’s merely a recognition of the fact that animal experimentation is a flawed branch of science. I support the overwhelming majority of scientific endeavors. But, I simply don’t fall for the idea that mice and rats are miniature men.

      1. Scientists tell the public that the world is warming as a result of our species’ influences. They show them data. Still some refuse to accept this and attempt to intimidate climate change scientists. In North Carolina, they even tried to pass a law that says you couldn’t even say the sea was rising at a non-linear rate..

        Scientists tell the public that embryonic stem cells hold promise for curing degenerative diseases. Some refuse to accept it as ethical and disrupt that research at every turn. They strip funding and ban cell lines.

        Scientists describe the paleontological record… discover and display fossil remains from our distant non- homo sapiens ancestors. Still, many refuse to accept an evolutionary account for the origin of our species.

        Scientists from every discipline – from computer science to physics to economics – tell the public that animal research is crucial to advancements in human health. The Nobel Committee says it. Physician groups (the AMA) say it. Veterinarians say it. Bioethicists say it is defensible. Yet some stridently refuse to accept the scientific and ethical basis of the work.

        EACH of these deniers are anti-science, and you are, too. Mice and rats are not miniature men (or women, for that matter, Paul), and no one ever said they were. But they are biologically correspondent precisely because of the evolutionary principles that gave rise to all species. All three creatures are made of cells. All have the same DNA template. All use sugars, fatty acids and proteins as energy sources and for cellular function. All have brains, and all their brains have the same parts. All those parts use the same neurotransmitters that are released from neurons that look pretty much exactly the same. We are all built from the same building blogs and as a result, the study of one informs the physiology of the other. It couldn’t be any other way.

        To deny that is to deny science. You should simply have the courage to accept that and state it openly.

      2. David, you write “Mice and rats are not miniature men (or women, for that matter, Paul), and no one ever said they were. But they are biologically correspondent precisely because of the evolutionary principles that gave rise to all species. All three creatures are made of cells. All have the same DNA template. All use sugars, fatty acids and proteins as energy sources and for cellular function. All have brains, and all their brains have the same parts. All those parts use the same neurotransmitters that are released from neurons that look pretty much exactly the same. We are all built from the same building blogs and as a result, the study of one informs the physiology of the other. It couldn’t be any other way.”

        So considering this true, what right do humans have to experiment on other animals if according to you, we are all biologically the same?

    2. You don’t know who I am. It would be possible for me to debate with you in person and not only knock you off your pedestal but show others what an idiotic, pathetic waste of oxygen you are.

      Talking of regurgitating statments – take a look at O’Leary’s “waste of neurotransmitters” garbage on at least two of the pervert’s comments. (Pervert is what your colleagues have described you as O’Leary – I perceive no reason to doubt them).

      None of my statement are unverified. You dare also to denigrate statements made by the Greeks, Vernon Cole and other real scientists to defend your own indefensible behaviourl.

      It’s a waste of time communicating with you. As we say – NEGOTIATION IS OVER. If you think targeting Camille Marino will have the desired effect, think again. The NIO group on FB & those Standing by Camille exceeds 5,000 members. NIO have now opened up chapters across the globe with tens of thousands of supporters and members. Liken us to a church if you will – removing one member of our community will not undermine us. It will embolden us.

      Your life (each of you) as you know it is rapidly coming to an end. It is not before time, and cannot be soon enough!

      Every point you make Devoid Jentsch can be turned back on you. You consider yourself an expert – as does O’Leary. You are not. You are fraudulent, sadistic, sociopathic scum, “posting the same tired point of view time and time again.”

      You will be silenced!! That is a promise.

      1. …and yet, more threats. Let me explain again, your tantrums and threats and harassment cannot make up for your dramatic failure to articulate a position that the public and our legislators will accept.

      2. Well, if it isn’t Annie, aka Ann Parkes, aka Winnie Kinsella all rolled into one. Let’s just call you the Three Stooges, shall we? You state “The NIO group on FB & those Standing by Camille exceeds 5,000 members. NIO have now opened up chapters across the globe with tens of thousands of supporters and members.” And yet, with all of that “support,” why are you unable to raise any money? Isn’t this one of your posts? “How the trolls must love to see constant posting for donations and go running back to their viviecting (sic) scum fucking friends with the information. I am bloody well sick of asking! Disgraceful!!” In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the chip-in for Zeus, a dog profiled on Camille’s Facebook page, hasn’t raised more money today than you have for Camille in weeks. Also, you might want to take it easy when making insinuations about O’Leary’s sexual deviances. Your buddy Camille has more than a few skeletons in the closet in that regard. Also, for those of you with daughters, make sure to caution them against keeping potentially embarrassing texts/photos on their cell phones, especially if they are involved in prostitution or kinky sexual activities, i.e., sadism and masochism.

    3. Well said, let’s add to that list threats to torture and murder children….that’s what Marino has done and the major reason she is being prosecuted in Michigan.

      1. Where are the threats made in Annie’s post – other than to say that ‘life as scum know it will come to an end.’ Once public consciousness is awakened, that is exactly what will happen.

        No-one has threatened to torture and murder children. The spawn of vivisectors, their extended family and social circle should certainly be targeted by way of disseminating information regarding the blood money that certain people’s lifestyle is built on. To say nothing of the ‘status’ in society afforded these second-rate, sadistic, corrupt ‘scientists.’

        Marino is being prosecuted for daring to publicise O’Leary’s crimes and his contact details. Information which is freely available on the internet. Freedom of Speech is under attack.

        Now – listen to me. I would be the FIRST to pop champagne corks if I were to see the dregs of humanity being thrown out of the sky and into a volcano. Would you like to attempt to undermine my freedom of speech also?? Not quite as easily done in Australia and the UK!

    4. Including Ray Greek – a friend of mine, whom you appear to have no regard for. Perhaps it’s because he is admirably able to confront and attack your fraudulent claims. How about debating in public Jentsch?! I’m sure it could be arranged!

  37. Robert Browning, 1812-1899
    I despise and abhor the pleas on behalf of that infamous practice, vivisection.
    I would rather submit to the worst of deaths, so far as pain goes, than have a single dog or cat tortured on the pretence of sparing me a twinge or two.

    Wrtten by a far wiser man than you Mr Jentsch.

  38. Maureen B. – this Vivisector and his cronies are a waste of space. The opinions that matter are those spoken when he looks at himself in a mirror. The only other opinions that matter are those of creatures at home in that hall of mirrors with him – all in their blood begrimed white coats and sneering faces!

    They are tormenting, mutilating and murdering sentient beings.
    That is a fate they, themselves are deserving of!

  39. ????! FAR WORSE? I’m sure that will be of much comfort to animals caged in laboratories and undergoing invasive treatments for decades. Prior to being murdered.

    Additionally, the impact of this ‘research science’ on an unsuspecting public is in no way for the public good – quite the contrary (in both health and monetary terms).

    Every Liberator in my close circle is involved elsewhere. Personally, I care for my own animals and have three I sponsor for life overseas. I am involved in fundraising regarding sanctuaries for neglected animals. I organise and attend demos. I give talks and write articles to promote awareness and raise public consciousness. I am involved also in other areas which are noone’s concern but my own!!

    So what, in your ridiculously obtuse comment am I overlooking cetude??

    And what exactly do YOU do?

    1. Why do you call my post “obtuse”. Animal activists should not pursue vivisectionists when there are far, far worse things one can focus on and get things done. You know there is an epidemic of dog fighting in America because drug gangs (even the Drug Cartel) hold these arenas to network illegal drugs and weapons. There is NOW a Federal bill which has passed the United States Senate to make attending dog fighting (or any animal fighting venture) illegal. It still needs to go through the House of Representatives. Because of this Federal bill it should be a top priority. If animal activists would concentrate on these I guarantee there would be a lot more welfare for animals. I hope you realize homeless and “free to good home” cats and dogs are used as “bait training” which they are literally ripped to pieces by dog fighters. Did you also know these gangs feed dogs crushed glass to make them more aggressive (they are going to die anyway in the ring). Like I said there are far, far worse things animal activists should focus on. Please sign/share this Petition to end dog fighting in America; it has 10,879 signatures. One should also call their Federal law makers.
      http://www.change.org/petitions/petition-support-hr-2492-animal-fighting-spectator-prohibition-act

    2. As for what you call “animal murdered,” consider the horrible fate of homeless animals. People are also dumping unwanted dogs and cats into the Everglades and they become SNAKE FOOD. Each and every homeless animal who died due to human and animal predation, or hit by cars, or poisoned by cruel people – were murdered by irresponsible people.

      The Florida Freshwater & Wildlife Conservation Commission estimated FIVE MILLION stray and feral cats in Florida and are breeding prolifically. They live very short, brutal lives whose ending is painful and cruel-due to starvation or eaten alive by snakes, coyotes-or countless parasites that drink their blood and worms. I cannot even imagine how hundreds of biting fleas and ticks would feel like, is what homeless animals suffer and gnawing hunger, heat, cold, storms, etc., at all times.

      In 2008, it cost the State of Florida collectively $93 million dollars to operate animal control, killing hundreds of thousands of companion animals just because there aren’t enough homes for them. With our economy, these sheer numbers – and expense – shall escalate. Not only is it expensive, it places a high toll on animal control workers who must kill these huge quantities of unwanted pets: It’s not their fault. For each animal impounded, there was a person who did not spay/neuter. *COST* is the main reason why people do not spay/neuter, and cats breed prolifically. Spay/neuter also prevents reproductive (breast, uterine and prostate) cancers, which are very common with unaltered animals.

      I’m doing what I can to alleviate the burden of the State and the agony of animals with legislation. As hard as it sounds, yes it works sometimes.

      What do I do? You asked-so I’ll tell you: I was the person who campaigned the snake ban in Florida, which passed…partially 😦 (but something is better than nothing)…. The Florida spay/neuter license tag was due to my activism, which the legislature approved in 2008 and has saved THOUSANDS of animals from homelessness and suffering due to low cost/free spay/neuter programs. These plates brought thousands of dollars of revenue to help fund these programs. I proudly have a spay/neuter license plate on my car-and I’ve contacted California law makers to share the idea and from what I heard not only did they like it but they created their OWN spay/neuter license plates. I’ve spent years on the Federal level with anti-dog fighting legislation, and I’ve been combating antibiotic abuse in farm factories. I also did a considerable amount of work banning penned hunts in Florida which hunting dogs ripped to pieces coyotes and foxes (basically legalized dog fighting), have gotten many Senators to speak against it, and yes it did pass. The anti-bestiality law, which took three years to Florida to pass, I was also very active with this. I’m trying to get a Federal bill introduced (NOT TAKERS YET!) against bestiality for not only is this an animal cruelty issue, and panders to deviance, but the zoonotic diseases cannot be ignored which brings animal diseases to the human species. Gonorrhea and chlamydiae are actually cow diseases. Interesting to note I first read about antibiotic resistant Gonorrhea (resistant against penicillins and tetracyclines) from a veterinarian article. THEN I found an article about humans with this disease resistant to these antibiotics – – later! I don’t know if this was coincidence–Suffice it to say, according to Kinsey sex reports, bestiality is not a rare thing. And it only takes ONE HUMAN to get infected and before you know it the whole human race will acquire the disease(s). Further I am trying to get other countries to ban bestiality, such as Denmark, and have received communications from Denmark officials who will consider it due to the diseases this sort of activity can bring. (you can see some research how bestiality is linked to criminal behavior here and while you are at it-sign the Petition!: (Denmark is so shameless they even have animal brothels-and that’s a fact!)
      (PS: Now there is superbug gonorrhea, resistant to all antibiotics, originated in Japan, and is rapidly spreading in Europe).

      http://www.change.org/petitions/petition-to-denmark-bestiality-is-very-dangerous-to-public-health-due-to-zoonotic-diseases

      It takes a lot of research, and networking to get laws passed, and contacting law makers and if one doesn’t care – another one will. Basically you have to try to “sell” your idea to a law makers much like a door-to-door salesman! But THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY to get things done.

      1. We AR activists are perfectly capable of doing more than one thing at a time. We can fight to end vivisection, dog fighting, factory farming, pet overpopulation, and many other issues (including issues other than the ones involving animals) at the same time. We don’t have to choose just one. Thank you for the links, I will sign them now. I hope your activism involves more than just posting links to petitions.

  40. Farm factory cruelty makes the lab a paradise. Animals in farm factories live in their own excrement and fed a diet of antibiotics in their food and water to keep them alive in the most vile of filth, and is a growth stimulant; yet most people don’t have the slightest tinge of guilt guzzling down fast food and little do most people know is that about half of the meat supply is infected with superbugs such as MRSA, VRE, even antibiotic resistant C. diff highly contagious just by handling raw meat; freezing does not kill MRSA and other superbugs. Combating animal cruelty also includes limiting antibiotic use to farm animals for the treatment of diseases. About 80% of all antibiotics sold in the United States goes to farm factory animals. This is something else animal activists should focus on, and not the vivisectionists. How is this “obtuse”. Chickens and turkeys are fed a diet of low dose arsenic (which is “organic”) because it too is a growth stimulant, but it’s also linked to cancer and diabetes. Chicken manure – which has arsenic in it – is a routine feed for cattle.
    http://www.change.org/petitions/farm-factories-abusing-antibiotics-spread-mrsa-vre-to-communities-via-raw-meat

  41. We are fully aware cetude (satanist LT by any chance) of what goes on in other areas.

    Are you suggesting that the atrocities perpetuated by the fraudulent ‘research scientists’ be overlooked and that other areas should be concentrated on?? In which case there would be people saying – “do you know what happens in vivisection laboratories – why do you not focus there’.

    As I’ve said, many of us ARE ALSO involved elesewhere.

    Most liberators do not need to be educated by the likes of you. We are fully educated, fully qualified – exceeding even the erudite ‘qualifications’ of the sociopath O’Leary who obviously feels that his Ph.D. is a license to murder!

    I suggest you go back to lighting your black candles and writing to the Queen of England – because I know who you are, you moron!

  42. cetude – you are an idiot. Your arrogant comment is completely off topic (VIVISECTION). A totally self-absorbed fool, using the plight of animals to enhance your own standing – sorry, doesn’t work!!

    You are a self deluded ‘satanist’, and the brunt of ridicule of those most active in the AR movement. I suggest that no-one wastes another second replying to you, thus taking away from what our focus should be here!

    I just noticed D.T. Jentsch’s remark and would like to correct him –

    You will be stopped dead in your tracks. Be in absolutely no doubt about that.

  43. Still waiting on a reply from the Don! I’ve looked everywhere on Google and can see absolutely no scientific papers with his name on it!!??? Hmmm. Could that be due to the fact he hasn’t published any? I’m happy to read them if he will produce them, but I am yet to see any evidence of his scientific ‘prowess’. Actually when you google him there are far more articles about his torturous activities. I did find one paper, but it was again about funding. Some minutes of a meeting at WSU where all that was discussed was Pilot Incentive programmes and how there would be more incentives if a grant was involved. Money again it seems. Of course, I’m happy to be proven wrong. David, you’ve gone awfully quiet too. I won’t bother replying to cetude, as he doesn’t even warrant breathing the same air as a real ARA.

    1. Lauren, maybe if spent less time writing to your psychiatrist you could learn how to do a proper Google search. In just a few seconds I was able to find more than 70 peer-reviewed journal articles with Donal O’Leary listed as an author or coauthor.

  44. You are right Lauren – cetude is probably busy speaking with the Queen of England or Obama at this very moment, in his much vaunted advisory capacity!!

    Insofar as Devoid Tiller Jentsch and O’Leary are concerned, the species ‘Vivisector’ and their spawn are of little concern to me. Ostracise them, ridicule them, wipe them out – who damn well cares, not I!! My only concern is publicising these individuals for the vivisickwhores they are, and for public consciousness to be awakened to this fraudulent ‘research science.’
    Then the torment of animals being tortured and murdered in laboratories will end.

    Speaking with species ‘Vivisector’ is a waste of time, albeit amusing. Sociopaths reside in a hall of mirrors where only their opinion, and that of those who reflect their perfidy and sadism, matters.

    It’s time for Freddie and Grim to write another article I think!
    How pathetic that Ms. Marino was accused of being the author!!

    The author is only known to a select and trusted few. Hopefully, I shall be in contact with this particularly talented writer who evokes wonderful scenes of righteous vengeance, later today.

    See you anon Perverts!

  45. Marino has never been accused of being the author of the Freddie and Grim post. But she did allow the post and then requested video of the children being tortured and murdered so she could post that on her site. These facts were stipulated by her lawyer. So the woman you all so strongly defend advocates torture and murder of children. Apparently you do to Annie. I wonder how strong your support would be if these facts became widely known. Or would you all be seen as lunatics? I wonder….

    “Free the fruitflys, murder the children”. Should this be your catchphrase?

    1. Who is talking of fruit flies? We are talking of sentient beings whose torture, mutilation and murder will not be allowed to continue!

      Do you talk every single word as literal?? I have often heard people say they “could kill” someone for a transgression – without the threat of being jailed for it!

      Marino has not threatened children. So get your facts (as well as your grammar and spelling) straight!

      VIVISECTION IS FAR MORE SINISTER THAN ANY TRANSGRESSION!

      1. K.C.
        It is you who need to get your facts straight. Marino allowed the Freddie and Grim post on her web site. That post directly threatened to torture and murder children. Marino then asked for these acts to be videotaped so that she could post this on her web site. These are FACTS. Annie knows this, yet still defends her. Will you and others still support a woman who advocates the torture and murder of children??

    2. Actually, Defender of children, Ann Parkes does advocate the harassment of the spouses and children of “vivisectors”…

      “I am not playing games with these bastards. I don’t mean physically attack the kids – I mean that their kids, and the public should know what these people do. Ostracising species ‘Vivisector’ will not work. As I continually say – they live in a hall of mirrors where fellow residents are their blood begrimed cronies!! They neither need or ask for our approval.

      By their family being made fully aware of what goes on is another weapon. If the family choose to stand by the bloodthirsty fucker who has given them a very nice lifestyle thank you, paid for by the blood of innocents, that is their choice. If species ‘Vivisector’ puts no value on the quality of life their child has, opting instead to continue his bloody rampage – that is his/her choice. I don’t give a fuck about their families being ostracised!!!!

      Nothing and noone is off limits. The victims are the animals in laboratories. Not vivisectors families growing fat like leeches feeding off the blood of others.”

      However, when the spot light is turned on her or her family, her beliefs magically change…”Now maybe Devoid Tiller Jentsch thinks I am fair game, but my sister in law is not! ”

      I am utterly gobsmacked by her sheer hypocrisy!

      1. My sister in law does not torment and murder innocents!

        Species vivisector is fair game. Those who choose to live off the blood money leeched from innocent beings deserve to (a) know exactly what is involved in order to facilitate their lifestyle and (b) should they not care then they, themselves, should be shown for the discompassionate, selfish fuckers they obviously are. Clear enough moron?!

        Nothing hypocritical about it! You most certainly should be gobsmacked!!

      2. Marino threated to TORTURE AND MURDER children. That is the main reason she is being charged.

  46. Moral Terpitude – I’ve just scanned the above comments and see none from anyone called winnie kinsella (a winifred – who I don’t personally know). Regarding posts for funding – many people are concerned now that FL. has seen fit to victimise Camille Marino. More funds are going to be needed. People have reached a point where they wonder how much more they will be expected to fund, due to the bogus accusations levelled at Marino. Quite rightly, people do not have endless amounts of ready money – unless they are in the vivisection business. The funds and the legal representation is covered, never fear!

    What do you know of Annie?? You know precisely nothing. My academic and professional qualification outranks even scumbucket O’Leary’s – yet I don’t feel the need to inflict agonies on the helpless in order to make myself feel powerful. I am secure within myself. More importantly, I am not a sociopath!

    This thread is about vivisection. Not what skeletons may or may not be in people’s closet. Apart, that is, from vivisectors – those frauds who take taxpayer’s money and indulge their sadistic fantasies whilst funding a comparatively lavish lifestyle.

    As far as remarks about O’Leary’s perversions are concerned – these were accusations made by two people from WSU – who approached a certain animal liberator. If and when we are able to publish this information, believe me it will make headlines and go viral on the internet. Until the accusers are willing to step forward (at risk to their own livelihood) we will need to be patient. Patience is a virtue – pretty much as ‘Defiance is a virtue’….

    You are at liberty to sling all the mud you like at any one of us. The fact is, as previously stated, we are not sociopathic, sadistic scum misappropriating taxpayers money or undertaking dismemberment of an animal in a conscious state.

    And who exactly are you – or are you so ashamed of your abysmally stupid post that you prefer to remain incognito! Ha!

    1. As it turns out, Annie, Winnie and Winifred all post from the same IP address in the UK.

      New comment on your post “Negotiation must never be over”
      Author : Winnie (IP: 94.169.51.138 , cpc2-soli5-2-0-cust905.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
      E-mail : parkesann@rocketmail.com
      URL    :
      Whois  : http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/94.169.51.138

      Author : Winifred. (IP: 94.169.51.138 , cpc2-soli5-2-0-cust905.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
      E-mail : parkesann@rocketmail.com
      URL    :
      Whois  : http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/94.169.51.138

      Author : Annie. (IP: 94.169.51.138 , cpc2-soli5-2-0-cust905.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
      E-mail : mogs.parkes@blueyonder.co.uk
      URL    :
      Whois  : http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/94.169.51.138

      1. Well, well, well, what do you know, Annie, Winnie and Winifred all share the same IP address as Ann Parkes. Liar, liar pants on fire! On a more serious note, it is a huge relief that funding is not a problem for Camille. You might want to let Mary Dwyer know, though, as I’m afraid she’s about to have a coronary due to the almost total lack of funds. Do any of her (or your) posts sound familiar?

        Mary Dwyer Fucking ridiculous!!!!! “Again”, there are a “few” who can’t donate “anything”, but to those who “can” donate and haven’t, DO YOU GET HOW FUCKING SERIOUS THIS IS FOR YOUR “SUPPOSED” COMRADE, CAMILLE, AND “MOST IMPORTANTLY”, THE ANIMALS YOU SO “STRONGLY” PROCLAIM TO BE FIGHTING FOR?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT A CROCK OF “SHIT”!!!!!!!!!!!!! IF YOU’RE IN CAMILLE’S SHOES ONE DAY, WHICH YOU PROBABLY NEVER WILL BE SINCE YOU’RE NOT WILLING TO GIVE UP “1 RED CENT”, MUCH LESS WILLING TO GIVE UP YOUR FREEDOM LIKE CAMILLE IS, I HOPE TO GOD THAT NOT 1 PERSON COMES TO YOUR RESCUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO APOLOGIES HERE!!!!! AND YOU CAN HATE ME WITH EVERY FIBER IN YOUR BEING!!!! I JUST DON’T CARE…

        Ann Parkes
        As you know, Camille Marino’s house was raided yesterday by FL police: they took her phone, computer, and all her papers and personal belongings. She is now facing similar charges in FL as she is in MI. Clearly they are out to totally destroy her — financially as the charges are bogus. She needs a lawyer now for her new FL problem, in addition to Matt Savich, who is representing her in MI.

        Very few people know the particulars of what happened yesterday and how brutal the assault on Camille Marino. At least 10 cops raided her house, took EVERYTHING, to prevent her working, and she is facing new charges in FL.

        We are aware now that the entire US (not to say Global) Vivisection Industry is behind what happened yesterday. We need urgently to raise funds for air tickets to face Vivisector MR. O’Leary, and associated costs. Also money for a new computer, and that is just for starters. They have taken away Camille’s ‘tools’ – they now need to be replaced rapidly!!

        This is a serious situation in regard to funds. We have known for some time that this is how they will try to strangle Camille and NIO. The oppressors have unlimited funding from corrupt government and mega-rich pharmaceutical companies. We only have each other, and our undying commitment to the animals!

        They Vivisection industry, big Pharma and the government are trying to destroy her, and all of us by extension. All those who support Camille Marino and NIO must now do some soul searching and ask themselves how committed they are to bringing the atrocities perpetrated on the voiceless in laboratories to an end!!! LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND ASK YOURSELF!

        The enemy are blatantly repressing and violating Marino’s Rights. The situation is extremely serious NOW and your help is needed IMMEDIATELY.

        Mary Dwyer
        OK, PEOPLE.. IT’S “BALLS TO THE WALLS” NOW!!!! YOU’VE READ ANN’S POST ABOUT CAMILLE’S HOUSE BEING RAIDED, SO YOU “KNOW” THAT DONATIONS ARE “DESPERATELY” NEEDED RIGHT “NOW”!!!!! ARE WE GONNA WIN THIS THING OR LET CAMILLE AND THE RESEARCH ANIMALS SCREAMING FOR “1 SECOND” OF MERCY GO DOWN IN A BALL OF “SHAMEFUL” FLAMES BECAUSE WE COULD HAVE SAVED THEM, BUT DIDN’T????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE “MUST” HAVE “EVERYBODY” ON BOARD “IMMEDIATELY”!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT JUST THE STEADFAST SUPPORTERS!!!!!! THERE ARE 3,627 MEMBERS IN THIS GROUP, WITH ONLY A HANDFUL TRYING TO MAKE UP IN THEIR DONATIONS FOR THE REST OF THE MEMBERS WHO AREN’T DONATING “ANYTHING”!!!!!!!!!!!! UNNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHILE YOU’RE DEBATING ON WHETHER OR NOT YOU CAN
        GIVE UP $10, $20, OR MORE, THERE ARE MILLIONS OF ANIMALS WAITING IN TERROR FOR THE NEXT AGONIZING FUCKING TEST!!!!!!!!!!!!

      2. Doesn’t mean they are the same person, my sister-in-law and niece live with me and have the same address also. So what?!

        We are talking about your atrocities Devoid ‘Tiller’ Jentsch – not who’s who – or in this case, who is not who!! In regard to ‘Annie’ – are you sometimes called Dave? I know that there is a nickname circulating around WSU for O’Leary! Ha!

        And moral centipede is so courageous and firm in his beliefs, he gives his own name !! What a pathetic and puerile attempt to divert what is being addressed here.

        Your address and information is also WIDELY available as you well know.

    2. Donate to Camille? That means less for the epidemic of homeless and unwanted animals. I rather donate to my favorite animal charities such as for low cost spay/neutering. I own the license plate. But I will also occasionally donate extra to help spay/neuter dogs and cats which means less homeless animals. Camille got herself in this mess, so that’s just too bad. It’s not like was wasn’t warned – including she willfully and blatantly violated a COURT ORDER which got her arrested in the first place. So yes I will donate – but toward low cost spay/neutering. If you wish to make a donation toward spay/neutering here is the link; I also make donations to the SPCA, or will occasionally buy food for their organization and soft blankets for the animals to lay on:

      http://www.floridaanimalfriend.org/donate.html

      1. Cetude – if you ceased to eat, in fact if you ceased altogether there would be ‘more’ for the animals – and the air would be that much cleaner. We know who you are.

        If Devoid and O’Leary weren’t megalomaniacs – power hungry, money hungry and lying frauds there would be animals breathing today who would not have spent their last weeks on this earth in anguish. So take your black candles and do what you do best!

        Marino did NOT get herself into any mess. She is exercising her right to free speech. She printed factual details and an address. In the long term Marino, and those who support her, will bring atrocities to an end. Whatever it takes!

        How about the people – centipede and Devoid who seek to find out Annie’s information (isn’t that snooping).

      2. i wouldent be writing so many letters to the queen if i were you, that could be classed as harassment of her majesty, you could be put in the tower, doubt she even sees them….

  47. Absolutely no sense or cohesion to any of the remarks made by vivisectors or their supporters (aka those who would malign the Animal Liberation Movement). A Home Office pathologist reading through the thread has had a mirth filled half-hour, fuelled by the posts of second rate scientists!

    The following is taken from text and with which I, and those who are not ‘second rate scientists,’ totally concur:

    “Animal experimentation contributes little to either research or drugs safety. The diversion of resources slows down medical progress. If we treat animals as machines, to be tortured in the name of science, then the screams can be dismissed as no more than a creak from a door.

    A growing body of researchers consider animal experimentation to be worse than useless. By careful choice of the animal it is possible to prove almost anything. Feed lemons to cats and they die, feed botulin to cats and they thrive. Aspirin will kill a cat. High doses of Strychnine, a favourite in crime novels, will not kill a guinea-pig. Digitalis (derived from foxgloves) is used to lower blood pressure, but its use was delayed for many years because experiments on dogs showed that it raised blood pressure. Testing drugs on animals provides no evidence that it is safe for human use, but it does provide a useful legal defence for the drugs company as they can claim it tested as ‘safe’.

    The list of drugs pronounced ‘safe’ is endless – Opren (anti-arthritic, 70 deaths in Britain, 3,500 serious side effects including damage to skin, eyes, kidneys, liver), Clioquinol (anti-diarrhoeal, 30,000 cases of paralysis and blindness in Japan, thousands of deaths worldwide), Thalidomide (sedative, 10,000 birth defects worldwide) etc. Dogs were mutilated to gain UK approval for the sex-drug Viagra.

    An International Treaty is required not only to ban xenotransplants but to outlaw this whole area of research.”

  48. “high doses of strychnine … will not kill a guinea pig”

    WRONG. The dose of strychnine that kills 50% of all guinea pigs to which it is administered is 10 mg/kg. The LD50 in rats is 2 mg/kg. Therefore, strychnine is only 5 times less potent in guinea pigs; that’s nothing in terms of drug sensitivity differences. For those who say it will not kill a guinea pig… tell that to 50% that died after 10 mg/kg in Kato et al. 1963 (more info can be found here: http://www.fs.fed.us/foresthealth/pesticide/…/052-17-03b_Strychnine.pdf)

    “Aspirin will kill a cat.”

    RIGHT! But your implication that there is something special about cats is WRONG. Indeed, aspirin can cause Reye’s syndrome in children and teenagers – a potentially fatal disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reye%27s_syndrome). There is nothing special your claim that it will kill a cat. Like most drugs, aspirin is toxic in any species when it is used improperly and without a fundamental scientific knowledge of its action in the species in which it will be used.

    “Feed lemons to cats and they die…”

    PARTIALLY RIGHT. Cats are somewhat more sensitive to the toxins found in lemons, but again, it’s wrong to say there is something specific about that. I assure you, if you eat enough lemons, you will experience toxic effects, too.

    To show you how “big” an issue this is, though, search petMD for “cat” and “lemon”. These are the hits you get (http://www.petmd.com/search-results?Q=cat%20lemon#.T-kaNHDs9XY)… none of the top hits have to do with lemons poisoning cats, so it’s NOT a big deal.

    “feed botulin to cats and they thrive”

    Wow, I’d hate to be your cat… As petMD clearly says: “Cats are generally resistant to the more severe effects of this toxin, but in some cases they may become severely ill. ” (http://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/neurological/c_ct_botulism#.T-kZk3Ds9XY)

    I certainly hope you don’t consider “sudden spreading weakness starting in hind legs and ascending to the trunk, front legs, and neck” and “severe weakness of all four legs or paralysis of all four limbs (which usually occurs within 12 to 24 hours of onset)” as “thriving.

    As I have said before, you might want to check some of these so called facts and JUST MAYBE give citations like I do. That might help you to verify some of your own claims and see them for the nonsense the rest of us can see them as.

  49. Moral Serpent-tude, luckily for the vivisectors I do write to my Psychiatrist often, as you apparently know very well. I see him often also. Insanity is a good defense!! It must be. The likes of Devoid and O’Lifeless have been getting away with murder becaues of it for years. You must love your role of playing prostitute to the vivisection industry. Guess they pay you well.

  50. I’ve just noticed Devoid’s remark to K.C. Apparently the text was taken from a medical article (?) I guess it wasn’t one written by you or your cronies Jentsch, therefore it is of no import.

    K.C. ask your pathologist friend if s/he would come on here, give a few pointers in words not more than two or three syllables, and show these sociopaths for the pathetic fucks that they are (not that most of us need any convincing whatsoever).

    Lauren – those in therapy hopefully have a chance of resolving any psychiatric problems they may temporarily have due to ‘social issues.’ However there is no cure for a sociopath. And only one remedy that would ensure they are no longer a threat to man and beast!

    1. Queenie was also slated to die in the pound. If you never seen dogs gassed to death in a municipal pound, then please watch this video. It’s happening every day, to tons of animals. Across America we tax payers spend every year approximately $2 BILLION DOLLARS for municipal pounds; on the average less than 10% get adopted. The rest are killed. Like this.

      Although some States have banned gas chambers (not even the worst criminals die in this manner, yet millions of unwanted pets have this fate), Death by gas chamber – often takes a long time because many animals are crammed into a small dark space. Elderly and pregnant animals may even require two, even three such “gas treatments” before they die. They are so terrified they lose bowel and bladder control, and many choke to death on their own vomit.

      Currently 13 states, including California, Florida, and New York, require animal shelters to perform death by injection, according to the AHA. The rest often uses gas chambers. Banning gas chambers is yet another cause animal activists should focus on – NOT the senseless harassment of individuals who lawfully experiment on animals.

      Please do watch the video.

      1. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF ACTIVISTS TRYING TO PUT AN END TO ANIMALS BEING MURDERED IN GAS CHAMBERS IF YOU DID YOUR RESEARCH YOU WOULD ALREADY KNOW THIS, AND IF YOU KNOW ANY REPRESENTIVES OF THE STATES THAT GAS ANIMALS MAYBE YOU CAN WRITE THEM A LETTER ASKING THEM TO PUT A STOP TO IT. GASSING AND HEARTSTICKING SHELTER ANIMALS IS JUST AS BARBARIC AND SAVAGE AS EXPERIMENTING ON THEM AND VIVISECTING THEM… TORTURING AND THEN MURDERING THEM….

  51. Annie, surely in all their wonderful scientific endeavours they must have come up with some medication to help alleviate their mental conditions. They’ve been using Lithium since the 1940’s and yet with all the advancements in medications it is still one of the best, notwithstanding its problems with toxicity. Yes, I fear you may be right. There is only one hope for them and the defenseless animals they destroy. Shaped the same as a capsule, but containing a different ingredient.

    1. Wrong again.

      Firstly, lithium, as a medication has been around since the 19th century. it was studies in the 1940s, in rats and guinea pigs, that led to the resumption of its use, specifically in the treatment of manic aspects of bipolar illness. Today, there are many other medications for this condition, including anti-convulsants and atypical antipsychotics.

      In the 70+ years since 1940, the medications available to psychiatry have evolved considerably. In the 40s and 50s, antipsychotic drugs became available for the first time, and in the 80s and 90s, the “atypicals” came to the market, alleviating the motor side effect burden of the original agents. L-dopa for Parkinson’s disease joined the field in the middle of the century. In the 70s and 80s, the serotonin specific reuptake inhibitors were developed, replacing the highly problematic tricyclic and MAO antidepressants; it is again worth noting that the development of SSRIs was hinged exclusively on animal studies (conducted by Arvid Carlsson, resulting in his receiving the Nobel Prize in 2000). Methadone for heroin dependence and naltrexone for alcoholism are both reasonably effective treatments… all these developments in the past 70 years.

      (And just to be clear – all your threat provokes in me is pity. I pity you, Annie/Winnie/Whatever her name and all the others that use these infantile threats to make yourselves feel better.)

  52. David Jentsch Refuses NPR Offer to Debate Animal Experimentation

    Pasadena, CA: KPCC Radio (NPR) offered the new UCLA pro-vivisection group Pro-Test, headed by David Jentsch, a chance to publicly air their views in a debate format with Dr. Jerry Vlasak, a practicing physician and press officer with the North American Animal Liberation Press Office. Vlasak eagerly accepted the challenge to appear in the studio Tuesday morning at 10:30, but Jentsch declined the offer;

    Earlier this week, Jentsch, who addicts non-human primates to PCP and methamphetamines before killing them, announced his formation of Pro-Test UCLA, a group of faculty and administrators who had apparently intended to defend the university’s ongoing practice of killing animals.

    Contacted at Americans

    Guess my suggestion that you debate Ray Green won’t be taken up either Jentsch!!

    1. No, I won’t debate Ray Green (sic) [I know he’s your best friend, not mine, but I do think his name is Ray GREEK]

      And no, I won’t debate either of these hacks. To do so is to belittle the concept of debate, itself.

  53. beg your pardon Ray – *Greek* – my healthy, full of life labrador just tried to jump on my lap. Jumping is not something the dogs in O’Leary’s lab will have the energy for!!

  54. Well, seems like that’s proof positive then of Devoid’s lack of faith he can convince anyone with scientific knowledge that what he is doing is not complete fraud. Must be quite demeaning to know that your peers realise how incompetent you really are.

    1. I hate to point it out, once again, but you are wrong. Quite apart from my role as a scientific activist, I maintain an active research and teaching program. In 2011, my peers honored me with The Jacob P Waletzky Award for my research into the biology of addictions. http://www.sfn.org/index.aspx?pagename=news_111211_waletzky

      This award is named for a young man who lost his struggle with addictions far too early in life. His family, hoping to do what they can to put an end to this disease established the award to support scientific research on addictions.

  55. Devoid Tiller Jentsch – you refuse to debate Dr. Jerry Vlasak. You appear to have little regard for Dr. Ray Greek. Perhaps the following will get through – although given problems with your frontal lobe & white matter it is doubtful:-

    ‘For the benefit of medical science vivisection should be stopped. We must put an end to the medical fraud of vivisection.”——Dr Moneim A. Fadali, for 25 years one of America’s leading cardiovascular surgeons.

    This highly respected doctor is also: Diplomate to the American Board of Surgery; Diplomate to the American Board of Thoracic Surgery; Certified with the Canadian Board of Surgeons; Certified with the Royal College of Surgeons, Canada; twenty-five years on the clinical staff of the University of California where he currently practises.

    The statements of Dr Fadali, are confirmed and supported by doctors equally impressive and prestigious in many fields of medicine who are vociferous in their agreement that abolitionists are correct in their claim that vivisection is fraudulent and that those engaged in it are scoundrels and charlatans who should be imprisoned.

    Dr Fadali’s evidence is borne out by medical historian who writes:

    “As for bypass surgery, animal research actually retarded this therapy for humans. Because a dog’s clotting characteristics and coronary valves are so different from ours, the initial human patients died. The first success was Dr Kunlin’s work in France. Dr Kunlin’s work was clinical and had nothing to do with animal research.”——Dr M. Beddow Bayly in Clinical Medical Discoveries ‘

  56. ANIMAL ACTIVISTS – dog and cock fighting is a far worse animal issue. I know you all are heavily networked and I am begging you all to help stamp out dog and other animal fighting in America. This is a FEDERAL BILL which has PASSED the United States Senate. There is a companion bill, HR 2492, in the House that needs to get through. Gangs including the Drug Cartel use dog and cock fighting ventures to network illegal drugs and weapons. These dogs are fed crushed glass to make them “fight better” because the agony “drives them crazy”. These gangs also give these dogs cocaine so they will “perform better”. The losers are often tortured to death-including doused in gasoline and set on fire. They throw in stray and free to good home cats and dogs as “bait training”. Please, please I am begging you to contact your Federal law makers (House Representatives) to pass HR 2492, prohibition of attending animal fighting.
    –You may sign this Petition as well, but don’t just rely on Petitions. We need PHONE CALLS to your Federal law makers. 10,906 signatures. Sign it, and make that phone call TODAY.

    http://www.change.org/petitions/petition-support-hr-2492-animal-fighting-spectator-prohibition-act

    This is happening, and it is URGENT you call your law makers to make it FEDERAL LAW.
    http://azstarnet.com/news/national/senate-house-bills-include-jail-for-watching-dog–cockfights/article_076293d9-d9c2-5f7a-986f-6cfff74de944.html

    “WASHINGTON – Watch a cockfight (or dog fight), go to jail.
    A provision of a Senate-approved farm bill would impose a sentence of up to one year in jail and a $100,000 fine for attending a cockfight or dogfight and a maximum of three years in jail and a $250,000 fine for bringing along a child.”

    I AM BEGGING ON MY KNEES TO PLEASE HELP. Please help. Sign the Petition. Call your law makers. Please. WILL YOU ALL PLEASE HELP ME GET THIS PASSED.

    I do apologize using this blog to promote this anti-animal fighting bill, but I am also clearly illustrating animal activists would be far better off fighting for things that can be accomplished and there are far worse animal issues that need addressing.

  57. I am also pleased to report that I’m far from an “armchair activist”. I wrote to Subway officials about vegan menus to accommodate different religions (Hindu and Seventh Day Adventists do not eat meat). It’s happening folks!
    Subway to roll out new line of vegan sandwiches. I don’t know if this was coincidence or not, but yes! 🙂 Unfortunately I didn’t have any luck with McDonalds.

    Published June 14, 2012
    FoxNews.com
    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/06/14/subway-rolls-out-new-line-vegan-sandwiches/
    This will promote veganism and gives far better menu options to accommodate different religions and cultures.

  58. I, for one, agree completely with DOL. I have no patience or inclination to engage these animal-abusing sociopaths and ideologues to debate the validity of the atrocities they commit for nothing other than prestige and money. And in order to preserve that air of respectability, they must insulate themselves from exposure.

    I know nothing about science and do not a for a second pretend to. I couldn’t care less about the minutia. It’s simply a distraction which is why Jentsch hails those who want to keep talking. The atrocities they commit against the enslaved innocents renders them all war criminals worthy of nothing but retaliation.

    And there is not a single one of them on the planet who would continue their abhorrent acts of depravity were money extracted from the equation! Suddenly your profound concern for humanity, Jentsch, would be flushed down the drain along with mask of sanity behind which you hide.

    To paraphrase Derrick Jensen, I am not opposed to vivisection either. Just experiment on each other instead of the animals and I guarantee you our full support.

  59. Oh God, hold me back. Cetude, you are the saviour of the world. Subway has rolled out a line of vegan sandwiches! All praise you Cetude!!! Ooh, I wonder if they’ll have a range of vegan cup cakes too???? You are a pathetic joke. Don’t call yourself an activist. It’s insulting.

    1. Not a saviour. I just wrote a letter to Subway. They happened to act on it. And I think promoting vegan lifestyles is a good thing.

      1. Many, many people have been urging subway to include better vegan options. It’s great that you’ve helped, but don’t think you did it alone. There are hundreds of thousands of us fighting for animals.

  60. Regardless how one feels about animal experimentation, realize that every single animal product including ADVANTAGE and FRONTLINE, all anti-worm preparations, all heart worm medications, was the result of animal experimentation. If you purchase dog or cat food, these preparations were also tested on animals. To a certain extent, it’s what is called a necessary evil. Animal activists, LEAVE THESE PEOPLE ALONE! You do NOT have the right to harass, intimidate, anybody. This is not activism-it’s being a thug. It’s WRONG. These individuals have their legal right to be left in peace.

    1. Would you volunteer any of your or your family’s animal companions to be experimented on by vivisectors for this “necessary evil” you speak of? I’m just trying to understand how someone who posts videos of animals being gassed at a shelter to urge people to help shelter animals can support vivisection when far worse is done to animals in labs (including “euthanasia” whether they are killed by a needle or gas). Hypocrisy much?

  61. Ah, so you’re not an Animal Activist then. By your own words, you’re not. You’ve just contradicted everything you’ve said previously cetude. All your magnificent posts about everything you’ve done. Not Animal Activism then? Well, what is then? As for being harassed and intimidated, this article was written to slander Camille Marino and the sign at the front of the blog which says “arrest animal activist (oops “s”), is certainly intimidating. If they want peace, then don’t publish this fraudulent rubbish in the first place.

  62. While I strongly believe that there is evidence of sociopathic behavior on the part of some people commenting on this thread, it is not David or Donal.

    Ann, I think you and Camille share most if not all of the following traits:

    10 signs for spotting a sociopath:

    #1) Sociopaths are charming. Sociopaths have high charisma and tend to attract a following just because people want to be around them. They have a “glow” about them that attracts people who typically seek guidance or direction. They often appear to be sexy or have a strong sexual attraction. Not all sexy people are sociopaths, obviously, but watch out for over-the-top sexual appetites and weird fetishes.

    #2) Sociopaths are more spontaneous and intense than other people. They tend to do bizarre, sometimes erratic things that most regular people wouldn’t do. They are unbound by normal social contracts. Their behavior often seems irrational or extremely risky.

    #3) Sociopaths are incapable of feeling shame, guilt or remorse. Their brains simply lack the circuitry to process such emotions. This allows them to betray people, threaten people or harm people without giving it a second thought. They pursue any action that serves their own self interest even if it seriously harms others.

    #4) Sociopaths invent outrageous lies about their experiences. They wildly exaggerate things to the point of absurdity, but when they describe it to you in a storytelling format, for some reason it sounds believable at the time.

    #5) Sociopaths seek to dominate others and “win” at all costs. They hate to lose any argument or fight and will viciously defend their web of lies, even to the point of logical absurdity.

    #6) Sociopaths tend to be highly intelligent, but they use their brainpower to deceive others rather than empower them. Their high IQs often makes them dangerous. This is why many of the best-known serial killers who successfully evaded law enforcement were sociopaths.

    #7) Sociopaths are incapable of love and are entirely self-serving. They may feign love or compassion in order to get what they want, but they don’t actually FEEL love in the way that you or I do.

    #8) Sociopaths speak poetically. They are master wordsmiths, able to deliver a running “stream of consciousness” monologue that is both intriguing and hypnotic. They are expert storytellers and even poets. As a great example of this in action, watch this interview of Charles Manson:

    #9) Sociopaths never apologize. They are never wrong. They never feel guilt. They can never apologize. Even if shown proof that they were wrong, they will refuse to apologize and instead go on the attack.

    #10) Sociopaths are delusional and literally believe that what they say becomes truth merely because they say it! Charles Manson, the sociopathic murderer, is famous for saying, “I’ve never killed anyone! I don’t need to kill anyone! I THINK it! I have it HERE! (Pointing to his temple.) I don’t need to live in this physical realm…”

    1. I’m just rejoining this thread, after a few days away. It’s certainly grown. I have to address a post to Cetude though. As an animal rights activist of over 30 years, I have to say that I am disgusted by your comments here. If you are truly someone who cares about animals, and not indeed one of the pro abuse crowd trolling then you are very deluded in your aims. I fully expect those who advocate on behalf of animals to have to justify their stance to the opposition, and indeed society in general. But, for someone who purports to be an advocate for animals to actually come here and side with vivisectors and those who support them against animal rights activists is nothing short of disgraceful. How the enemy love folks like yourself. Divide and rule has always been an extremely successful tactic throughout history. It saddens me so much to see so many ‘pro animal’ people still falling for it. When you attack animal advocates you do the animals, the cause and yourself a great disservice. If you think polite requests to modify their behaviour and a staunchly pacifist stance its going to change anything, then you are sadly mistaken. It never has, and it never will. If you disagree with direct action against those who abuse animals then that is your choice. Just don’t do it. But, as the saying goes (or close enough!) ‘He who sides with my enemy becomes my enemy himself’. In leaping to the defence of those who perform the most evil, sadistic cruelties upon animals and pleasing “LEAVE THESE PEOPLE ALONE” you clearly show that you have no concept whatsoever about the animal rights cause. Our movement does not need people like yourself who spend their time attacking others for fighting for animal rights. You are an obstacle to real progress, and most certainly no friend of the animals. Your sort will swiftly move on to another cause to espouse. Leaving the genuine people still fighting this battle. The phrase ‘With friends like these, who needs enemies’ springs to mind with regard to yourself and the tortured animals in laboratories that you don’t give a damn about.

      1. Camille should have listened to the Judge and complied with her Court Order. Let me put it this way Paul: If people can’t control themselves and comply with laws – then someone will do it for them.

    2. i must be a sociopath too, along with thousands of others who want an end to all animal abuse, cruelty, vivisection, experiments, research.. etc etc.. as we say, sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me. call me what you like but vivisectors are still and will always be torturers and murderers of innocent defenceless animals..

      1. I suppose the irony of saying “sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me” and then turning around calling others names is lost on Eleish…

        I learned something a long time ago. People can should names at me, lie about what I do and insult me and everyone around me, but saying these things doesn’t make them true. Repeating them doesn’t make them true. Screaming them doesn’t make them true.

  63. Incidentally, Moral Turpitude. Charles Manson certainly exhibits sociopathic behaviour. He may well be an ‘out there’ drug crazed loon. But, that doesn’t alter the truth when he states “I didn’t kill anybody”. He’s never been convicted of killing anyone. If you know different I’d suggest that you provide law enforcement with names, dates etc..

    1. Paul, although you are correct that Charles Manson didn’t actually kill anyone himself he was, nevertheless, found guilty of seven counts of murder.

  64. Jentsch~ you really should stop rationalizing your irrational behaviors. What a pathetic parasite you are! You don’t possess an ounce of decency and certainly don’t deserve to continue to breathe the air afforded you. Oh, how you under-estimate us and our contempt for you!! May you feel the fear and sleep with one eye open Motherfucker!!! I wouldn’t want to be you for any amount of money in this world! Hahahaha!!

      1. Then why do you even choose to reply David? Surely someone of your “calibre” need not stoop to converse with us if we are so pitiful to you.

      2. WHATS HAPPENED TO YOUR.. EYEBROWS.. MAY I ASK.. IN ANSWER TO THE ABOVE REPLY YOU SENT ME, VIVISECTORS ARE TORTURERS AND MURDERERS, MONKEYS DRAINED OF THEIR BLOOD, ORGANS TAKEN, BABY MONKEYS BORN BY CEASARIAN SECTION BLOOD DRAINED UNTILL BARELY ALIVE HEARTSTICKED, ORGANS TAKEN, BEAGLES PUNCHED, MONKEYS BRAIN DAMAGED, BABY MONKEYS EYES SEWN SHUT SONIC DEVICES STUCK ON THEIR HEADS THAT DRIVES THEM ALMOST INSANE THEN STUCK IN THE DARK, NEED I GO ON, IF THATS NOT TORTURE AND MURDER, WHAT IS…

  65. MR. Devoid Tiller Jentsch – Why do you persist in refusing to debate DR. Ray Greek. Or maybe you would prefer to debate DR. Jerry Vlasak! Haha!!

    I’m actually meeting up with a genuine scientist this morning. I’ll ask him to look you up for some cheap entertainment if he has the time!!

    Please ensure that none of your puerile articles are sent to me via my email address. Do not spam me. Or you may be deluged with more ‘mail’ than you can handle.

    btw – you really do need to address the matter of your skin condition!

  66. Jentsch persists in refusing to debate Dr. Ray Greek – I wonder why (?)

    “Jentsch prefers a forum where positions other than his are not represented” ~

    J. David Jentsch, the personification of the banality of evil-. ‘I found the letter from Dario L. Ringach and J. David Jentsch (Ringach and Jentsch 2009) that appeared in the September 2009 issue very disingenuous. During April of 2009, I gave Dr Jentsch the opportunity to ‘discuss, debate, and express our opinions on the importance . . . of animal research (Ibid).’ He declined my offer to debate the subject at UCLA complete with UCLA security at the event.’

    -Ray Greek MD

    Play nicely today – Jentsch, O’Leary and poor, deficient dario are doubtless a little down in the mouth! I have to go and undertake some real work – which doesn’t involve harming a single living soul!!

  67. David, if the experiments on antipsychotic medications were shown to be ok in rats and guinea pigs, how come the effects of tardine dyskenisia never showed up in them? Was it perhaps that they are so disimilar from humans that animal trials are completely useless. If in the 70+ years of research since Lithium was first used to treat Bipolar, it is still the main drug of choice for severe Bipolar illness, namely Bipolar1, then just how much of the research has been completely useless. If only they hadn’t relied on animal experimentation, which as everyone knows is absolutely useless, especially when considering the complexitites of the human brain. Granted the use of the newer generation of antipsychotics is far better, but there are still great side effects from these medications. Weight gain, depression, paranoia, sleep disturbance just to name a few. If the medications are so wonderful, why are so many patients simply unable to use them? Please don’t insult me by saying that most with this condition like the mania and pretend they can’t take their medication. If the proper research was being done into not only mental illness, but all illnesses, we would have many more cures and better treatments by now. Too much money is being wasted by charlatans like yourself and the Don. You are frauds. I don’t care how many letters you have after your name, or what awards you’ve paid people to give you.

  68. If you should ever get a blood clot in your leg, it can break away and kill the lungs. One such treatment is heparin – it is made from purified pig intestines. I doubt most animal activists would refuse this treatment if they got a leg clot –and heparin is made from slaughtered pigs. In fact it takes about 3,000 pigs – count them – **three thousand pigs** to make a single kilogram of heparin.

  69. Actually cetude, I think you will find that most animal activists would even opt out of chemo therapy so herapin would present no cunundrum to us.

    1. It’s easy to say that when it’s not happening to you, is it. Ohh, words are sooo cheap. If you get a clot in your leg, I guarantee you will get treatment and don’t tell me otherwise rather than risking pulmonary emboli (lung clot)- which will kill part or all of the lung. So don’t bullshit me.

  70. NIO supported animal cruelty of Caboole Ranch; the cat hoarder in Florida, even having called PETA a “murder machine” and blasted their investigation against Caboole Ranch. PETA received these complaints and investigated.

    http://www.negotiationisover.net/2012/03/16/nio-florida-supports-caboodle-ranch-against-the-peta-murder-machine/

    QUOTED DIRECTED OFF THE NIO SITE (please don’t bother deleting it because I already photographed the page).

    “The PeTA Murder Machine Strikes Again
    Earlier this month, PeTA raided the sanctuary, seized all of the cats, and imprisoned them in cages. They are now being held as “state’s evidence” while the Madison County Sheriff prosecutes Craig and Nanette based on PeTA’s disgusting and groundless accusations..”

    NIO–GROUND ACCUSATIONS YOU SAY??
    700 cats lived in the most horrific hoarding/filth. Maggots were found in the refrigerator which stored “medications”. The owner also attempted to wipe out infections in cats’ eyes with bleach towelettes.

    It went to Court.

    “Caboodle Banned From Having Animals
    Written by PETA
    06-25-2012
    In a huge victory for animals, Judge Greg Parker of Florida’s 3rd Judicial Circuit has ordered that Caboodle Ranch not get back any of the animals who were seized following a PETA undercover investigation. Just as importantly, Judge Parker ruled that Caboodle cannot possess or have custody of any live animals!”

    “The investigation exposed the reality that nearly 700 cats confined to the “no-kill” facility faced each day: an essentially one-person operation with no paid full-time help that subjected animals to severe crowding, filth, disease, neglect, suffering, and a miserable death.”

    Please sign Petition to ban Caboodle Ranch from collecting public donations:

    http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/2012/06/25/victory-caboodle-banned-from-having-animals.aspx?utm_campaign=0612+Caboodle+Victory+Blog&utm_source=PETA+E-Mail&utm_medium=Alert

    NIO-you FAIL! Here is the investigation and the truth! Caboodle Ranch’s special HELL for cats. Which NIO attempted to protect their animal cruelty.

    More testimony how NIO tried to protect this animal hoarder:

    1. There is no group or organisation which is 100% perfect. There are always going to be times when they take a stance which you will disagree with. Caboodle Ranch was mine with NIO. I think that PETA did a great job of exposing the terrible conditions the cats were kept in there. NIO’s criticism of them was completely unfounded, in my opinion. But, one mistake certainly doesn’t invalidate all the excellent work they have done in exposing just how depraved and immoral those who perform animal experiments are. I’m sure that, having witnessed on here your rather manic and irrational persona, that you disagree with plenty of what PETA does.

  71. Dear members of Negotiation if Over. You all disgust me. You all are an INSULT to legitimate animal activists.

      1. Just what is your definition of a ‘ legitimate animal activist’ Cetude? What are your particular qualifications that you judge others? I’ve been involved with the animal rights movement since about 1980. Attended hundreds of demonstrations. Handed out thousands upon thousands of leaflets. Known most of the top people involved. People I’ve known have lost their lives for this cause. They were true 100% animal rights activists. What the hell have you done? You are a stupid man playing silly games from behind your computer screen. You are no more an animal rights activist than your buddies Jentsch and O’Leary are.

    1. I’m not a member of Negotiation is Over. I don’t know how many people (if any) on this thread are. I have to say that it is pretty funny that you can call yourself an “animal activist” and support vivisection. I suppose you don’t consider animals in labs to be animals? After all, a *legitimate* animal activist should actively fight fot the rights of all animals, yes?

      1. “Civil disobedience” is a quaint term, but it’s cool logic (i.e., cheap words) is its flaw: Breaking the law IS serious. Animal activist lose doing this, and the government will only pass more laws to combat illegal activities. That is why the Federal government passed the AETA (Animal Enterprise Terrorist Act). You can thank extremists for this. Animal extremists are 100% responsible for AETA. It gives animal activists a bad name, which means the public will be turned off by ANY message for animal welfare, and even law makers – which is the real ONLY way to make changes – will be less willing to listen to proposals. I know I’m just talking to the hand because zealots are zealots. But I also believe animal extremism attracts the mentally ill who finds “logic” to express their antisocial behavior, and even worse, crimes against society. Realize the LAW sees an extremist in the same leagues as abortion clinic bombers – that’s why AETA was passed.

    2. YOU CALL YOURSELF A… LEGITIMATE ANIMAL ACTIVIST… I CALL YOU A HYPOCRITE… YOUR RANTING ON AND ON ABOUT ANIMALS BEING GASSED, DOG FIGHTING, COCK FIGHTING, HOMELESS ANIMALS…ETC, ETC, ( WHICH I FIGHT TO STOP ALSO.) AND YOUR SUPPORTING ANIMAL VIVISECTORS, AND SLAGGING US THE GENUINE ANIMAL ACTIVISTS OFF…YOUR THE BIGGEST HYPOCRITE IVE EVER HAD THE MISFORTUNE TO ENCOUNTER….

  72. Would all these pro-vivisection people please list me every disease that has been cured by this evil practice? How has it benefited the human race at all? For example…the research that Donal O’Leary is conducting at WSU…..how has that helped at all? Or shoving monkeys into tubes to inhale smoke? How does that help. Any person with HALF a brain knows that smoking causes cancer. Please…list every experiment that has EVER made a difference. NONE…absolutely NONE. And I also resent the fact that researchers, if thats what you call yourselves, always speak to people without PHD’S like we are idiots. Im not a doctor…I admit that…but I have feelings for other beings. And I know that everything about vivisection is wrong. Morally…ethically…in everyway possible.

    1. MAYBE THE VIVISECTORS CAN ANSWER THIS DAWN… A LABORITORY WAS CONDUCTING BARBARIC EXPERIMENTS ON CATS THAT WERE SO SEVERELY TRAUMATISED THAT THEY WERE KILLING AND EATING THEIR OWN KITTENS..AND THE EXPERIMENT THEY WERE DOING ON THESE CATS… IMPLANTING DEVICES INTO THEIR BRAINS TO STUDY… MIGRAINE HEADACHES…..HOW THE HELL CAN THEY TEST A CAT FOR MIGRAINE…..TOTALLY BARBARIC AND RIDICULOUS,… FALSE SCIENCE…….

  73. I have seen too many videos…undercover at labs around the world. They have kept me up at night and given me nightmares. Monkeys screaming in pain….dogs being punched in the face and thrown up against walls…lab workers laughing as the animals scream and cry and suffer. NO EXCUSE….

  74. Cetude. We are aware that you act in advisory capacity to heads of state, MacDonald’s & Subway outlets worldwide, but your expertise here is truly not appreciated.

    “Legitimate Animal Activist.” By this, you obviously mean those acting within
    the remit of the law. My concept of legitimacy is based on what is right and ethical – therefore legitimacy pertains only when authority is morally accountable and acceptable.

    When sadistic, corrupt laws exist, which are fuelled by greed and megalomania, I do not recognise these ‘laws’ as legitimate. They have no merit.

    Farcical authority which seeks to exploit and dominate, brings absolutely no influence to bear on genuine, passionate animal liberators. Obviously, as someone whose charm is only exceeded by his intellect, you cannot be expected to understand this.

    I am confident that the Queen of England is avidly awaiting your next letter – so take your little self off and write to her. She obviously sets great store by your advice on ruling what’s left of the empire. Arise Sir Cetude!!!

    But as far as I am concerned – go fuck yourself you pathetic, perfidious piece of shite!

    1. I DON’T KNOW IF HE REALISES THAT THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND WONT BE THE ONE WHO WRITES TO HIM, SHE WONT BE SITTING AT HER DESK WRITING HIM A PERSONAL LETTER, SOMEONE ELSE DOES THAT, AND IT WILL BE ONE OF THOUSANDS SENT OUT TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE, SHE WONT EVEN KNOW HE EXISTS…

    2. I’ve received personal letters from Parliament in England, because the Queen herself has submitted my letters to them. Their bureaucracy is just as bad as USA’s, but that doesn’t mean I won’t stop trying. Even more difficult is the Chinese government.

  75. Jentsch! no time to read yr droning lies.You are a disgrace! Vivisection is a lie, you are a surgically enhanced loser and you will one day go down in the history books as one of the worst of humanity;s slime. I do not usually get involved in talking with shite as there is not much point and is largely a waste of my time.You are too deranged to talk any sense to. RIP to all the innocent animals that you terrorised, tortured and murdered, probably while you laughed about it. I hope one day yr botox surgeon puts so much botox in yr head that your vile mouth is forever shut. You are worse than the nazi doctors and one day you will answer for all you have done. Rot in hell you piece of vile shit!

  76. Marino threatened to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN…..

    Marino threatened to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN…

    This is the woman you all defend as such a hero????

  77. Camille Marino stands up for the innocent in the face of huge oppression from the Government and Big Pharma. That is why she is a hero to so many. You can think what you like about her tactics, but she gets results! It is so obvious from all the money being spent to silence her and NIO that the vivisection industry is very nervous. They have good reason to be. All this victimisation of Camille is doing is bringing more publicity to the horrors of vivisection and is forging strong aliances within the AR movement who feel she is being unfairly targeted for simply stating the truth about animal abuse. Anyone who has watched a video of vivisection or seen pictures smuggled out of a lab needs only to think of those images to know who is in the right and who is the despicable sociopath. Threats and intimidation are just that. There has been no violence to any person take place. While there are many who would like to see that happen, so far it is all just talk.

    1. I have seen far too many of those videos smuggled out of the hellholes that these people call labs. They are the true terrorists…they are the dangerous ones. It is disgusting and I dont know how ANY of them sleep at night. They can justify what they do all they want. They can make up excuses…call us all stupid…ridicule us and call us crazy all they want. Bottom line…WE ARE SICK AND TIRED OF THIS AND WE ARE GOING TO MAKE CHANGE. BIG CHANGES ARE COMING. WE ARE GROWING IN NUMBER AND BECOMING A FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH.

      1. Marino wanted video of the TORTURE AND MURDER OF CHILDREN so she could post this on her site. You defend this???

      2. When you think about it…you can equate what scientists and lab workers do to defenselss beings in labs everyday with child abuse. Children, like animals, are weaker…defensless…easy to control. How we feel when we see a monkey strapped in a chair with his scalp missing and his brain exposed while he screams is how you would feel if it were a child. We would feel the same if it were a child but all of you dont value non-human primates like we do. Pain is pain…agony is agony…grief is grief….WE DONT CARE WHAT SPECIES IT IS

    2. Threatening to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN and encouraging others to do so is illegal. You defend this????

      1. How many times are you going to bring this up? Its ridiculous and what Camille Marino is doing is trying to make a better world for children. A world without the horrors of vivisection. None of us would torture or murder a child. You take words said in anger and twist them to suit your purposes. We are ANGRY. We have every right to be angry. Ill ask you…Do you defend the astrocities that go on in labs all over the world on a daily basis? The laughing of the lab workers as they hear animals scream? Like its all a big joke….torturing and hurting defenseless beings. YOU ARE ALL MONSTERS.

      2. ANOTHER ONE REPEATING ITS SELF, ISEN’T YOUR MOUTH GETTING SICK AND TIRED OF SAYING THE SAME THING..OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND AGAIN…..

  78. Monsters is exactly what they are Dawn. Camille Marino has harmed no one and is not likely to. Vivisectors on the other hand murder and maim innocents every day. They revel in the power they have over the defenseless. They are pathetic and completely devoid of any humanity. Defender of children, you are a moron.

    1. I would never take a child…shove it in a little tube while it cries and squirms and is forced to breath in smoke. I would never do it to a non human animal either. Therein lies the difference here everyone. Its okay to hurt and torture and terrorize non human animals in the eyes of the vivisector community. They are concerned only with there own species and the faulty results these test provides dont even benefit them. We, on the other hand, care and have respect for ALL LIFE. Now I ask again…Who are the terrorists? Who are the monsters

      1. Marino threatened to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN in the most obscene, sadistic way. So how can you defend her???

        Why do I keep bringing this up? Because it is a central issue. How can you defend this? Why no explanation? What Marino did is fact, the threats were posted, her lawyer stipulated that the postings were made by her. How can you defend this???

        She threatened to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN. You condone this???

    2. Marino threatened to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN in the most vile and sadistic way. You defend this??? How can you condone this and yet say that you respect all life???

      1. Its called an analogy, asshole. Do you even know what that word means? How would you like to see a human child strapped in chair. His or her scalp peeled back and the skull open and the brain exposed. He or she would be screaming in agony. Oh, and the lab workers would be laughing and joking about it. You would get pretty angry wouldnt you? Well we feel the same way about all beings. You wouldnt do it to a human child. Would the hell makes it okay to it to a non-human animal? They are just as helpless as human children. AND THIS RESEARCH IS FAULTY. IT DOESNT EVEN BENEFIT THE HUMAN RACE. ITS AN EXCUSE TO SATISFY BLOODLUST. MR. O’LEARY…I KNOW YOUR OUT THERE….IS A DOGS HEART AND CIRCULATORY SYSTEM CLOSELY RELATED TO A HUMANS? HAS ANY OF YOUR RESEARCH BENEFITTED THE HUMAN RACE AT ALL? COME OUT FROM THE ROCK YOU HIDE UNDER. CAMILLE MARINO AND NIO SCARE YOU AND WELL WE SHOULD. WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS. WE WILL NO LONGER IDLY SIT BY AND LET “SO CALLED” DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS LIKE YOU ABUSE, TORTURE, AND KILL INNOCENT BEINGS.

      2. you keep bringing it up because you havent anything else to say, you defend animal torturers and murderers….we will no longer allow this atrocity towards innocent animals to continue….

  79. In my opinion, I believe animal extremism attracts the mentally ill who finds “logic” to express their antisocial behavior, and even worse, crimes against society. It “rationalizes” their sick mania. No normal person would do these crimes against society. Realize the LAW sees an extremist in the same leagues as abortion clinic bombers – that’s why AETA was passed. I’m very sorry these licensed experimenters were harassed, even victims of crime. I only wish people would leave them alone. AT this point and time, some animal experimentation IS a necessary evil. Users of FRONTLINE, ADVANTAGE and any other product to rid parasites and diseases including heart worm medication, is the product of animal experimentation. Even the foods you give your pets – is the product of animal experimentation. If you have blood clot, heparin is the drug of choice, but it takes the intestines of 3,000 pigs to make a single kilogram of heparin. I also realize it’s pointless trying to get these facts across. Because zealots will be zealots. They cannot see beyond that. PS: For you zealots who can’t see reason – that is why there are jails and prisons. Because if you CANNOT control your antisocial behavior – SOMEBODY ELSE WILL. (As a person who used to work for the Department of Corrections, note that the women’s prisons are a lot more brutal than men’s prisons).

    1. this statement is coming from someone who is under the illusion that the.. queen of england… writes to him.. then runs down to the houses of parliment and insists they drop everything and pay attention just to him… cetude your a sandwich short of a picnic… go see your doctor… researchers have come up with a pill that will bring you to your senses…

    2. SEEING AS YOU AND THE .. QUEEN OF ENGLAND… ARE CORRESPONDING BUDDIES WHY DON’T YOU SEND HER A FRIEND REQUEST ON FACE BOOK….

  80. And Cetude….YOUR A WASTE OF LIFE. WE ALL KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU ARE. GO TO HELL…WHERE YOU BELONG

  81. Dawn Woody,
    Now we know that you approve threatening to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN.

    How about the rest of you???

    1. I never said i approve of this and Camille Marino didnt either. Again, you are trying to take attention away from the real issue. You have ABSOLUTELY no defense. None of you do. Thats why you keep bringing up the same shit over and over again. Trying to make Camille out to be a unstable monster. Camille is alot braver and stronger than any of you will ever be. Some of us have a passion. Its something we believe strongly in and are willing to put our freedom and lives on the line for. For every monkey strapped in a chair…for every dog running on O’Leary’s treadmill….for every rabbit having chemicals put in its eye….for every animal that suffers at the hands of humans…WE WILL FIGHT. We will keep showing up…we will show up at your jobs and your homes. Now take your TORTURE AND MURDER OF CHILDREN and shove it.

    2. Quote Camille Marino’s exact words here. Not your interpretation of them – or the fact that she, in addition to many others, said she would be interested to see Freddie & Grimm’s video (note I say ‘Grimm ‘- as in fantasy!). Quote her exact words, no more or less.

      How exactly do you ‘Defend Children’. How many of your own do you have (none I hope).

      You are like a broken record!

      I believe another article may be ‘brewing’ – Freddie & Grimm’s sister is actually the really imaginative one!! Maybe not too many difficult words – thus enabling the stuttering shambles O’Leary to entertain the few friends he has, with his dramatic renderings!

  82. Marino asked Freddie and Grim to videotape the TORTURE AND MURDER OF CHILDREN so she could post this to her web site. This was stipulated by her lawyer. This is the woman you defend as your hero…..someone who threatens to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN.

    Dawn and Annie, you keep claiming that she never did this, then Dawn you said it is only an analogy and therefore OK…so you clearly agree that it is acceptable behavior to threaten to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN. Just check the records for youself.

    1. “Marino asked Freddie and Grim to VIDEOTAPE …..”

      Freddie and Grim wrote what could be the script for a horror movie. Many people watch horror movies – but they would be horrified if, in fact, these acts happened – and doubtless, they would laugh at any suggestion that they would participate.

      Marino did not threaten to physically torture and murder anyone. She ‘threatened’ to watch a video if it were posted!!! Gosh!

      Insofar as Vivisectors are concerned, I have no compunction about what atrocities befall them. Members of their family should be aware that their lifestyle is bought with the blood shed by animals. Should they not care, they should be ostracised in the wider community!

      The non-human animals tortured and murdered by fraudulent scientists are also someone’s children. Being a speciesist, ignorant asshole that would not matter to you in the slightest.

      Once again dumbo – in your own words “Marino asked Freddie & Grim to videotape” – she did not threaten, at any time to participate in anything!

      1. The act of posting of the Freddie and Grim sadistic diatribe (which Marino admitted to doing) and the asking for videotape (which Marino admitted to doing) is direct participation in threatening to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN. Your defense of this speaks volumes.

    2. Camille, Annie and I have never said it is okay to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN. You are the one that keeps on mentioning TORTURING AND MURDERING CHILDREN. In fact, thats all you keep mentioning…TORTURING AND MURDERING CHILDREN. It seems to be on your mind a little too much, Defender. You are the one who seems to be thinking about TORTURING AND MURDERING CHILDREN. I may have to report you to your local authorities. I fear you may TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN. I mean, anyone who talks about nothing other than TORTURING AND MURDERING CHILDREN is a threat to society….LOL

  83. Negotiation is Over actually protected the agony and suffering of 700 cats with their so-called “investigation”. Read what the ASCPA wrote with the regards to the TRUTH of Caboodle cat ranch (animal hoarding):
    I quote: “Thanks to a major court victory for the ASPCA this week, the cats rescued from Caboodle Ranch are a big step closer to finding the forever homes they deserve. In an eight-page order, a judge of Florida’s Third Judicial Circuit transferred ownership of the felines from Caboodle Ranch to local authorities, saying the nearly 700 cats should never return to the rural Florida property. The judge wrote that the cats “were not receiving proper and reasonable care while in the custody of Caboodle” and that Caboodle lacked “the resources, ability, skill and (most importantly) willingness to follow expert veterinary advice essential to an operation dedicated to the care of such a large and apparently ever-growing number of animals.”
    The judge also prohibited Caboodle from acquiring more animals, ensuring that no more cats fall victim to hoarding there.”

    Link is here:
    http://blog.aspca.org/content/huge-courtroom-win-caboodle-ranch-cats

    This is the animal cruelty investigation PETA came up with – despite the evidence NIO called PETA a “murder machine”.
    http://www.negotiationisover.net/2012/03/16/nio-florida-supports-caboodle-ranch-against-the-peta-murder-machine/

    PETA INVESTIGATION – Watch it…

    SHAME ON YOU NIO!

      1. Now this is *TOTALLY AWESOME!* and shows great promise for the treatment of diseases! I’m a big supporter of xenotransplant research!

        Heart of genetically modified pig ‘successfully transplanted into monkey’, South Korea scientists claim
        By Nick Enoch
        PUBLISHED: 11:03 EST, 26 June 2012 | UPDATED: 11:09 EST, 26 June 2012

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2164964/South-Korea-scientists-successfully-transplant-heart-genetically-modified-pig-monkey.html

      2. This “No kill nation” brings more suffering and death to animals thanks to animal activists. Billions of dogs and cats are breeding across the nation and it’s IMPOSSIBLE to give them all homes. Or have you not ever PROPERLY taken care of a dog or cat – they COST. I spend about $100 a month on all three of my cats. Food, kitty litter is not enough. Frontline and Advantage is also expensive. Periodic vet checks. Cost. These “rescued” animals end up in the hands of HOARDERS (like Caboodle Ranch). In fact: ONE OUT OF FOUR people arrested for hoarding – is an animal activist with a shelter, even with tax exempt status. READ NEWS ARTICLE HERE:
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38978396/ns/health-pet_health/t/when-animal-rescuers-become-animal-hoarders/

        When animal rescuers become animal hoarders
        Rescues, shelters make up a quarter of the 6,000 hoarding cases each year (in USA).

  84. Screw Pita were talking about what is happening in universities and labs. It is totally uncalled for and people who do this have to be morons. There is no reason on Gods Green Earth to induce such pain and suffering on any human being. I would rather be an animal rights extremist than a asshole saddist evil sob.

  85. Yes…we arent here to talk about PETA or animal hoarders or shelters. We are here to talk about vivisection. I LOVE how you all change the subject and bring up the same things over and over again. It just goes to show that you have absolutely no defense. None. You have DEFENDER repeating SHE WANTED TO CAPTURE AND TORTURE CHILDREN…over and over. And Mr. Thomas rambling on like the mentally ill person he is. If you both dont want to stay on the subject here then go back under the rocks you both crawled out from under

      1. .

        The enemy expects us to cower in fear in their presence. That is why we must go foward defiantly. Imagine a movement of activists that has zero fear and were mentally prepared to fight this war on our terms. They maybe able to eliminate one or two of us, but they could NEVER stop us all. Defiance is a virtue…and fearlessness is power~Camille Marino

  86. Dawn,
    The subject here is Marino’s conduct (read the top section of this blog).

    Among other things, she threatened to TORTURE AND MURDER CHILDREN.

    Do you defend this behavior? I keep asking this question but I’m not getting any clear answer other than implied agreement.

    So, stick to the subject.

  87. I find it absolutely hilarious how you all just make stuff up. First it was “I’ll bet that O’Leary arranged for Camille to be extradited”….now it is claimed as fact that O’Leary paid for it out of his own pocket…..never let little things like facts or truth to get in the way of your messages….your credibility is so badly undermined by yourselves it is just really pathetic.

  88. For a really revealing Camille story do a Google search for Camille Marino and Encyclopedia Dramatica. My personal favorite is her “Friends with Benefits” ad…it’s nice to see that some things never change!!!

  89. you missed out the ‘e’ = hypocrite

    maybe you would care to give your name? Hahaha …

    GlaxoSmithKline to pay $3billion fine after pleading guilty to healthcare fraud – the biggest in U.S. history

    By Daily Mail Reporter

    PUBLISHED:17:14, 2 July 2012 | UPDATED:01:35, 3 July 2012

    A UK drugs firm has been hit with a $3billion penalty after admitting to the ‘biggest healthcare fraud in history’.

    GlaxoSmithKline paid U.S. medics to prescribe potentially dangerous medicines to adults and children.

    It handed out cash as well as everything from Madonna concert tickets to pheasant-hunting trips. Authorities branded GSK as ‘cheaters who thought they could make an easy profit at the expense of public safety, taxpayers, and millions of Americans’.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167742/GlaxoSmithKline-pay-3b-fine-pleading-guilty-healthcare-fraud.html#ixzz1zZlAnHY8

  90. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/terrorism
    ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm) n. “The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.”

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    1. mo·ron   [mawr-on, mohr-]

      noun
      1. Informal . a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.

      2. Psychology . (no longer in technical use; considered offensive) a person of borderline intelligence in a former and discarded classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50 to 69.

  91. Guangdong China beats and boils alive 10,000 cats daily for human consumption. Korea and China routinely hangs, beats and BOILS alive millions of cats and dogs every year because to them it’s just meat. They believe agony and torture “makes the meat taste sweeter”. And “keeps them warm”. Yet I don’t hear a single animal activist complaining about that-they rather stick with their “manias”. An animal activist in Korea sent a video of a dog literally being boiled alive in hopes of educating the West what they do. But for some strange reason, most Western animal activists don’t care about that. I’m not going to show it because it’s far too gruesome. And it’s given me nightmares. Suffice it to say most animal activists fail in their campaigns being unable to envision the full scope of matters. And some are downright crazy.

  92. Camille Marino is a fraud and a liar. My dear comrade Dr. Steven Best has provided me with all the information we need to take down this heroin addicted sociopath and put her in jail once and for all. Please visit my facebook page for all of the information you need to give to her judge. Perfidy and betrayal will not be tolerated.

    1. David, there seems to be some controversy regarding the post above made by “Annie” on 9/13/2012 at 20:59:23. Could you please provide the email address and IP address associated with this post?

  93. Yes, there appears to be another Annie..Who may I ask thought this little misleading number up ?? But then again we are dealing with embellisher excellence.

  94. Here I am!! Haha…. between 3rd July and 13th September (was it a Friday??) I suddenly changed my opinion of vivisection??? Pathetic! Haven’t even given this blog a thought as I’m nursing my dying husband!

    Read all my previous posts – up until the Federal Agent Michal Schwartz or or one of the woodentops decided to fraudulently post as me.

    Additionally, the hacking of my account has now been reported!

    Good Morning David Jentsch – my opinion of you and your ‘techniques’ remains unaltered. Vivisection most certainly is the “blackest crime.”

    And Good Morning Schwartz, Pinocchio and the Woodentops – your carnivorous habits have most certainly addled your brains. Perhaps you should offer yourself to Jentsch for his research programme?? Save a few animals from torture – instead of costing them their lives with your antics.

    Being vegan for 20years, I can tell you that my mind is extremely clear – as is my conscience!

  95. Just noticed – if you are going to post as me – please put a full stop (period) after my name. It’s one thing I tend to always do…. You were not quite as ‘meticulous’ as you imagined!

  96. Fertility clinics are staffed medical clinics that assist couples, and sometimes individuals, who want to become parents but for medical reasons have been unable to achieve this goal via the natural course. Clinics apply a number of diagnosis tests and sometimes very advanced medical treatments to obtain the desired conceptions and pregnancies.,

    Most current short article straight from our own web portal
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